OT: Tipping culture

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johnson86-1

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This issue isn't the hourly rate, it's how many hours an hourly employee is working. Anything over 40 hours that isn't compensated at time and a half is wage theft. I'm honestly not sure why you have a problem with that characterization. It's the law and it's meant to stop employers from making hourly employees work extra hours without being paid for it.
Except to you it clearly is the hourly rate, hence you thinking the exact same economic arrangement is theft or not depending on how you describe it.
 

FQDawg

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Except to you it clearly is the hourly rate, hence you thinking the exact same economic arrangement is theft or not depending on how you describe it.
I said a couple of different times that, for hourly employees, the primary issue is working beyond 40 hours in a week without being paid overtime. I used an hourly wage as part of an equation to show that your hypothetical hourly worker making $1,000 for 50 hours of work was being underpaid.

Other than that, hourly wage isn’t really the issue here and I don’t think I’ve brought it up. The only place it matters is when you’re talking about tipped employees whose hourly wage and tips must combine to reach minimum wage. If they don’t, the employer is obligated to pay them enough to reach minimum wage. If the employer doesn’t, I’ll let you guess what that’s called.

And again, if your issue is how employees are classified, take it up with the Dept. of Labor. But just because you don’t like the current rules doesn’t mean you’re right about what it or isn’t wage theft.

I’m beginning to think you’re either trolling me or genuinely don’t understand this topic.
 
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paindonthurt

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I don't think it's uncommon for restaurants to divide tips, at least between waiters and bartenders and busboys if not between front of house and back of house. And of course once the money passes through a middle man, there is always an opportunity for the middleman to skim some, and I'm sure most waiters and waitresses don't document every credit card tip they get unless they are suspicious they're getting screwed, and even if they do, if the busboys and bartenders are getting tipped out by multiples waitresses, then they can't tell if they are getting the percentage claimed by the manager unless every waiter tracks their tips. I can see why ownesr or managers at corporate owned restaurants would think they could take some and never be caught.
It would be really dumb for an owner to skim money from credit card tips. There is a paper trail.

Id be willing to hypothesize that it happens more from “jar tips”.

I’d also be willing to bet my life it happens with a server stealing money from another server or back of house person more than it does from an owner.

Seen it happen a lot and way easier to do.
 

paindonthurt

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I said a couple of different times that, for hourly employees, the primary issue is working beyond 40 hours in a week without being paid overtime. I used an hourly wage as part of an equation to show that your hypothetical hourly worker making $1,000 for 50 hours of work was being underpaid.

Other than that, hourly wage isn’t really the issue here and I don’t think I’ve brought it up. The only place it matters is when you’re talking about tipped employees whose hourly wage and tips must combine to reach minimum wage. If they don’t, the employer is obligated to pay them enough to reach minimum wage. If the employer doesn’t, I’ll let you guess what that’s called.

And again, if your issue is how employees are classified, take it up with the Dept. of Labor. But just because you don’t like the current rules doesn’t mean you’re right about what it or isn’t wage theft.

I’m beginning to think you’re either trolling me or genuinely don’t understand this topic.
Y’all just wanna screw working people don’t you.

If you take away tipping, server pay will go down. FACT.
 

paindonthurt

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My brother has worked in the service industry for almost 25 years. Owners/managers stealing tips of front line employees in restaurants and bars is a huge problem. Just google tip theft and you'll see dozens of links that try to help employees with that issue.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this chart - and it doesn't specifically break out tip theft - but I've seen others like it over the years. Wage-related theft is by far the No. 1 type of theft in the U.S.

My point was that it’s easier to steal cash tips versus credit card tips.

Employees steal more tips a than owners do.

Ive been a minority owner in 3 restaurants and managed 6 others. I can guarantee the owners weren’t stealing tips in the 6 I managed.

I can guarantee multiple employees were.
 
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FQDawg

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Y’all just wanna screw working people don’t you.

If you take away tipping, server pay will go down. FACT.
Where do you get that I want to screw working people? I've made the point several times that wage theft is a big issue. I want every working person to get every dollar they're owed and then some. I have no idea about whether server pay would go up or down without tipping and I don't think I've made any claims in that area.

My point was that it’s easier to steal cash tips versus credit card tips.

Employees steal more tips a than owners do.

Ive been a minority owner in 3 restaurants and managed 6 others. I can guarantee the owners weren’t stealing tips in the 6 I managed.

I can guarantee multiple employees were.
It may very well be easier to steal cash tips than credit card tips. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And that's great that the owners/managers of the restaurants you worked at were above board. The place my brother works at seems to have good folks running it, too. But your own experience may not be universal. Owners/managers stealing tips and underpaying employees is still a big issue all across the country.
 
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paindonthurt

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Where do you get that I want to screw working people? I've made the point several times that wage theft is a big issue. I want every working person to get every dollar they're owed and then some. I have no idea about whether server pay would go up or down without tipping and I don't think I've made any claims in that area.


It may very well be easier to steal cash tips than credit card tips. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And that's great that the owners/managers of the restaurants you worked at were above board. The place my brother works at seems to have good folks running it, too. But your own experience may not be universal. Owners/managers stealing tips and underpaying employees is still a big issue all across the country.
But how are they underpaid?

if they make minimum wage they are paid legally. If they don’t like the pay and are good at their job, FIND ANOTHER ONE.

Restaurants are begging for good help right now.

AND it’s way easier to for an employee to steal than an owner. Bet you want find a study on that though.
 

FQDawg

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But how are they underpaid?

if they make minimum wage they are paid legally. If they don’t like the pay and are good at their job, FIND ANOTHER ONE.

Restaurants are begging for good help right now.

AND it’s way easier to for an employee to steal than an owner. Bet you want find a study on that though.
You can Google wage theft examples and you’ll find page after page that explains how it happens. This page has quite a few examples.

The simple fact that someone makes minimum wage has nothing at all to do with whether or not they’ve had compensation they’ve earned withheld from them. Even salaried employees can be victims of wage theft. Your assertion doesn’t make any sense.

The fact that restaurants are begging for good help doesn’t change the fact that employees have to deal with wage theft.

And, yeah, studies are great. Data and provable facts definitely hold more weight with me than a few random anecdotes or, as the kids like to say, vibes. I enjoy learning about new things so if you’ve got a study that shows employees steal more tips from each other than owners steal from employees, I’d be happy to read it.
 

johnson86-1

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I said a couple of different times that, for hourly employees, the primary issue is working beyond 40 hours in a week without being paid overtime. I used an hourly wage as part of an equation to show that your hypothetical hourly worker making $1,000 for 50 hours of work was being underpaid.
And you really don’t understand how absurd your position is? An employer and employee agree to 50 hour work week and $1,000 a week rate, and your position is “that employer is a thief”. An employer and employee agree to a 50 hour work week for the same work, but with an hourly wage of $10, which works out to a weekly pay of $550, “glad that employer isn’t like the thief paying his employee $450 more per week but describing it impermissibly.”
 

paindonthurt

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You can Google wage theft examples and you’ll find page after page that explains how it happens. This page has quite a few examples.

The simple fact that someone makes minimum wage has nothing at all to do with whether or not they’ve had compensation they’ve earned withheld from them. Even salaried employees can be victims of wage theft. Your assertion doesn’t make any sense.

The fact that restaurants are begging for good help doesn’t change the fact that employees have to deal with wage theft.

And, yeah, studies are great. Data and provable facts definitely hold more weight with me than a few random anecdotes or, as the kids like to say, vibes. I enjoy learning about new things so if you’ve got a study that shows employees steal more tips from each other than owners steal from employees, I’d be happy to read it.
Yeah again you won’t find a study about employees stealing from the company or other employees. If I did, you’d probably say it was bogus.

A business owner stealing from an employee is pretty damn traceable in almost every aspect of business minus cash tips.

Most business owners aren’t around to steal cash tips.

Cry more.

And no I’m not reading your links about employer theft unless you link one that gives great statistics on the topic at hand. “Restaurant owners stealing from employees”.
 

FQDawg

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And you really don’t understand how absurd your position is? An employer and employee agree to 50 hour work week and $1,000 a week rate, and your position is “that employer is a thief”. An employer and employee agree to a 50 hour work week for the same work, but with an hourly wage of $10, which works out to a weekly pay of $550, “glad that employer isn’t like the thief paying his employee $450 more per week but describing it impermissibly.”
Jeebus. It’s not “my” position. I’m not stating an opinion or waxing poetic about how I wish things were. I am explaining facts about how the law is actually structured. I've provided several links in this thread that back up what I'm saying, including at least one that links directly to the Department of Labor page that explains how this all works. But since I'm guessing you haven't looked at any of them, I'll try to explain this again.

In your two examples that are quoted here, it’s not the $20 an hour or $10 an hour that are important (at least not for the first 40 hours in a work week). It’s not the $1000 vs $500 total remuneration that’s important. It’s solely about the fact that your hypothetical hourly employees are working 50 hours in a week. Both of your examples, as written, would constitute wage theft because they don't have a clear and obvious accounting for the 10 hours of overtime pay those hourly employees have earned.

Put another way... Paying an hourly employee $10 an hour for 40 hours in a week is perfectly fine. Paying them $10 an hour for 50 hours is not fine. To be legal, you have to pay them $10 an hour for the first 40 hours and then $15 an hour for the other 10. If an hourly employee works more than 40 hours in a week, they are entitled to time and a half pay for those extra hours. Not giving it to them is wage theft, pure and simple. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

I’m sorry you don’t like the law as it is currently written. But what does or doesn't constitute wage theft isn't a matter of opinion.
 

FQDawg

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Yeah again you won’t find a study about employees stealing from the company or other employees. If I did, you’d probably say it was bogus.

A business owner stealing from an employee is pretty damn traceable in almost every aspect of business minus cash tips.

Most business owners aren’t around to steal cash tips.

Cry more.

And no I’m not reading your links about employer theft unless you link one that gives great statistics on the topic at hand. “Restaurant owners stealing from employees”.
Try me. If you have data to back up what you're saying, I'd be happy to read it. I'm not even saying you're wrong. It's entirely possible that employees steal from each other more than employers steal from employees. But that doesn't change the fact that employers still steal from employees. Wage theft is not something I've made up. It's very real.

There are plenty of other ways that an employer can underpay an employee beyond "taking cash tips." Here are just a few examples:

1. Paying Less Than Minimum Wage

The federal minimum wage guarantees workers a minimum of $7.25 an hour. Many states and cities require an even higher minimum wage. In New York City, for example, employers with more than 11 employees must pay a $15 minimum wage. Paying less than minimum wage violates minimum wage laws.

2. Not Paying Overtime

Employers must pay overtime for qualifying employees who work more than 40 hours in one week. Some employees may be overtime exempt, meaning their employers are not legally required to pay overtime. For all other employees, denying overtime pay is a form of wage theft.

3. Automatically Deducting Time for Meal Breaks

In states with unpaid meal breaks, employers may still be required to pay for breaks if the employee performs any work tasks during the break time. This can mean checking emails or answering phone calls. Automatically deducting meal breaks from pay may count as wage theft.

4. Taking Illegal Deductions

Employers can make certain deductions, such as income taxes or health benefits. However, many states outlaw employers deducting wages for spoilage or breakage, to make up for cash shortages, or to cover a customer who didn't pay their bill. Deducting for these reasons violates wage theft protections.

5. Not Paying for All Hours Worked

Many employees perform work duties before they officially clock in. Employers must pay employees for all hours worked. For example, if you have to install updates on your computer for 20 minutes before officially clocking in, your employer must pay for those hours.

6. Misclassifying Employees as Overtime Exempt

Employers may abuse the overtime classification system to save money on overtime pay. Misclassifying an employee as overtime exempt when they qualify for overtime can result in significant lost wages.

7. Not Paying Interns

Employers are only allowed to hire unpaid interns if they meet strict guidelines. For example, the internship must provide training similar to an educational environment; the internship must be for the benefit of the intern, and the intern cannot displace regular employees. Interns who do not meet these criteria must receive pay.

8. Not Paying for Remote Work

If you respond to emails outside of work hours, you must be paid for that time. Employers must pay workers for the time they spent outside of work reading and responding to emails or text messages.

9. Misclassifying Employees as Independent Contractors

Employees may misclassify employees as independent contractors to save money. Misclassification can cost workers significant lost wages.

This is a link to the website of a law firm that represents wait staff who have been the victims of wage theft. They give some broad examples of the cases they've handled:

Some Real-Life Examples of Restaurants Committing the Above Violations:

We have seen numerous examples of restaurants and other service-related businesses illegally charging waiters and waitresses and illegally retaining tips. The following are just a few examples of instances where employers were violating the laws by engaging in illegal tip theft:
  • Restaurants illegally charging waiters and waitresses $1 per shift for a “glass-breakage fee” to cover the costs of replacing broken cups and plates.
  • Restaurants illegally requiring bartenders to pay for any cash register shortages at the end of each shift.
  • Numerous examples of restaurants and other service related businesses illegally charging employees for uniforms.
  • Restaurants illegally charging waiters and waitresses for cash shortages at the end of each shift.
  • Restaurants illegally charging waiters and waitresses credit card fees to process their tips.
  • Restaurants and other service related businesses Illegally charging employees a “house-fee” – this amount is usually based upon the amount of tips earned during the shift or a percentage of the employee’s sales.
  • Restaurants requiring employees to eat meals at the restaurant, where the restaurant makes a profit from the purchase of the mean.
  • Numerous examples of restaurants requiring waiters and waitresses to contribute to a tip pool of which a portion was distributed to back-of-the-house employees or management-level employees.
  • Numerous other examples of employers scheming up plans to retain employees’ tips or charge employees for items that are more properly considered a cost of doing business.

Here are some actual stats:

Wage theft is estimated to impact over 2.4 million workers annually costing them $8 billion in minimum wage violations. Previous estimates suggest wage theft is particularly common in the restaurant industry, with 84% of investigated restaurants having some type of minimum wage violation.

Over a third (35%) of tipped workers report their tips and additional wages did not bring them up to their state’s minimum wage. Nearly one third (32%) report this violation of their rights occurred more in 2021 than in 2020.

nearly half (47%) of tipped workers report not being compensated for “time and a half ” when they work overtime — women were 10% more likely to report not being paid for overtime.

I honestly don't get why you guys are so adamant that wage theft isn't happening.
 

johnson86-1

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Jeebus. It’s not “my” position. I’m not stating an opinion or waxing poetic about how I wish things were. I am explaining facts about how the law is actually structured. I've provided several links in this thread that back up what I'm saying, including at least one that links directly to the Department of Labor page that explains how this all works. But since I'm guessing you haven't looked at any of them, I'll try to explain this again.

In your two examples that are quoted here, it’s not the $20 an hour or $10 an hour that are important (at least not for the first 40 hours in a work week). It’s not the $1000 vs $500 total remuneration that’s important. It’s solely about the fact that your hypothetical hourly employees are working 50 hours in a week. Both of your examples, as written, would constitute wage theft because they don't have a clear and obvious accounting for the 10 hours of overtime pay those hourly employees have earned.
Both examples would not constitute wage theft. This is as simple as it gets, and you are making mistakes while smugly thinking that it’s simple to just know the law and follow it.

Put another way... Paying an hourly employee $10 an hour for 40 hours in a week is perfectly fine. Paying them $10 an hour for 50 hours is not fine. To be legal, you have to pay them $10 an hour for the first 40 hours and then $15 an hour for the other 10. If an hourly employee works more than 40 hours in a week, they are entitled to time and a half pay for those extra hours. Not giving it to them is wage theft, pure and simple. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

I’m sorry you don’t like the law as it is currently written. But what does or doesn't constitute wage theft isn't a matter of opinion.
It doesn’t have anything to do with liking or disliking the law, it’s just not liking absurd statements. The word theft has a generally accepted meaning. The term “wage theft” was made up fairly recently and it is more or less a term of art that does have a generally agreed upon meaning, but just because the word theft is in the term wage theft doesn’t make “wage theft is theft” a valid statement any more than “West Virginia is Virginia” is a valid statement.
 

FQDawg

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Both examples would not constitute wage theft. This is as simple as it gets, and you are making mistakes while smugly thinking that it’s simple to just know the law and follow it.

It doesn’t have anything to do with liking or disliking the law, it’s just not liking absurd statements. The word theft has a generally accepted meaning. The term “wage theft” was made up fairly recently and it is more or less a term of art that has a generally agreed upon meaning, but just because the word theft is in the term wage theft doesn’t make “wage theft is theft” a valid statement any more than “West Virginia is Virginia” is a valid statement.
Please explain how neither of those examples constitute wage theft. You are more than welcome to point out any mistakes I've made. But show your work - point out a regulation or a statute that shows that not paying an hourly employee time and a half for overtime is an OK thing to do.

Wage theft has been a term for at least 20 years. It does have a generally agreed upon meaning (that may be the first thing you've gotten factually right in this entire thread). Wage theft is the term for when employers don't pay employees everything they're owed. But please enlighten me... If wage theft isn't theft, what is it? What do you call it when an employer doesn't pay an employee what they're owed?

If you really don't think wage theft is theft, I have an exciting job opportunity for you.
 

johnson86-1

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Please explain how neither of those examples constitute wage theft. You are more than welcome to point out any mistakes I've made. But show your work - point out a regulation or a statute that shows that not paying an hourly employee time and a half for overtime is an OK thing to do.

Wage theft has been a term for at least 20 years. It does have a generally agreed upon meaning (that may be the first thing you've gotten factually right in this entire thread). Wage theft is the term for when employers don't pay employees everything they're owed. But please enlighten me... If wage theft isn't theft, what is it? What do you call it when an employer doesn't pay an employee what they're owed?

Theft is generally defined to be the taking of personal property of another without permission with the intent to deprive them of it. And to the extent it is a proper legal term, it’s usually a term used instead of larceny. To the extent it’s used as a lay term, it’s generally used to describe some sort of crime that would be a Malum in se crime. Larceny, embezzlement, fraud, robbery, or burglary. It’s not usually used to describe two people reaching an agreement that the law prohibits.

If an employer doesn’t pay an employee what “they are owed”, it can be lots of things. It could be insolvency. Employees are essentially creditors. Highly favored creditors and creditors that usually paid, but certainly not ones that always get paid. That’s not good or desirable, but not everything not good or desirable is theft.

An employer and minor employee agreeing to an arrangement that violates laws regarding how much minors can work doesn’t mean the minor has committed a theft against the employer.

Nor has an illegal alien stolen from the employer if they reach an agreement that is not permitted under the law.

Nor is it theft for a nanny that would qualify as an employee to agree to work for cash under the table. In some sense she is “entitled” to social security contributions, but the employer isn’t stealing from her just because their mutual agreement isn’t in compliance with the law.

It’s especially not theft to have compensation that is plenty high enough to satisfy the law and that the employee is happy with because it’s the economic deal that they actually agreed to, but that Congress or the DOL doesn’t want to allow, even though they would allow a much lower amount of compensation if they had accounted for it differently.
 

paindonthurt

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1. Paying Less Than Minimum Wage

The federal minimum wage guarantees workers a minimum of $7.25 an hour. Many states and cities require an even higher minimum wage. In New York City, for example, employers with more than 11 employees must pay a $15 minimum wage. Paying less than minimum wage violates minimum wage laws.

THIS ISNT AN EXAMPLE OF WAGE THEFT. I’m not really sure what the point is. An example would be Johnny works in New York where he is laid $11/hr illegally when the minimum wage is $15/hr.

2. Not Paying Overtime

Employers must pay overtime for qualifying employees who work more than 40 hours in one week. Some employees may be overtime exempt, meaning their employers are not legally required to pay overtime. For all other employees, denying overtime pay is a form of wage theft.

NOT AN EXAMPLE AGAIN. Just a hypothetical. Are you talking about salary individuals?

3. Automatically Deducting Time for Meal Breaks

In states with unpaid meal breaks, employers may still be required to pay for breaks if the employee performs any work tasks during the break time. This can mean checking emails or answering phone calls. Automatically deducting meal breaks from pay may count as wage theft.

NOT PROOF IT HAPPENS. I’m sure it does but like all these things it’s not the norm.

4. Taking Illegal Deductions

Employers can make certain deductions, such as income taxes or health benefits. However, many states outlaw employers deducting wages for spoilage or breakage, to make up for cash shortages, or to cover a customer who didn't pay their bill. Deducting for these reasons violates wage theft protections.

5. Not Paying for All Hours Worked

Many employees perform work duties before they officially clock in. Employers must pay employees for all hours worked. For example, if you have to install updates on your computer for 20 minutes before officially clocking in, your employer must pay for those hours.

6. Misclassifying Employees as Overtime Exempt

Employers may abuse the overtime classification system to save money on overtime pay. Misclassifying an employee as overtime exempt when they qualify for overtime can result in significant lost wages.

7. Not Paying Interns

Employers are only allowed to hire unpaid interns if they meet strict guidelines. For example, the internship must provide training similar to an educational environment; the internship must be for the benefit of the intern, and the intern cannot displace regular employees. Interns who do not meet these criteria must receive pay.

8. Not Paying for Remote Work

If you respond to emails outside of work hours, you must be paid for that time. Employers must pay workers for the time they spent outside of work reading and responding to emails or text messages.

9. Misclassifying Employees as Independent Contractors

Employees may misclassify employees as independent contractors to save money. Misclassification can cost workers significant lost wages.


ALWAYS LOOKING FOR THE BOOGEYMAN.
 

FQDawg

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Theft is generally defined to be the taking of personal property of another without permission with the intent to deprive them of it. And to the extent it is a proper legal term, it’s usually a term used instead of larceny. To the extent it’s used as a lay term, it’s generally used to describe some sort of crime that would be a Malum in se crime. Larceny, embezzlement, fraud, robbery, or burglary. It’s not usually used to describe two people reaching an agreement that the law prohibits.

If an employer doesn’t pay an employee what “they are owed”, it can be lots of things. It could be insolvency. Employees are essentially creditors. Highly favored creditors and creditors that usually paid, but certainly not ones that always get paid. That’s not good or desirable, but not everything not good or desirable is theft.

An employer and minor employee agreeing to an arrangement that violates laws regarding how much minors can work doesn’t mean the minor has committed a theft against the employer.

Nor has an illegal alien stolen from the employer if they reach an agreement that is not permitted under the law.

Nor is it theft for a nanny that would qualify as an employee to agree to work for cash under the table. In some sense she is “entitled” to social security contributions, but the employer isn’t stealing from her just because their mutual agreement isn’t in compliance with the law.

It’s especially not theft to have compensation that is plenty high enough to satisfy the law and that the employee is happy with because it’s the economic deal that they actually agreed to, but that Congress or the DOL doesn’t want to allow, even though they would allow a much lower amount of compensation if they had accounted for it differently.
I have definitely settled on the idea that you don't really know what you're talking about. You certainly don't understand the law and you're just throwing out opinions and hypotheticals that fit the way you want to see the world even though they have no basis in fact or reality.

You said "Theft is generally defined to be the taking of personal property of another without permission with the intent to deprive them of it." That's another thing you've finally gotten right (Congrats!). Now, just take the next logical step and understand that money that an employee earns is their personal property. If an employer deprives them of that, there's nothing else to call it but theft. The fact that we further specify and call it wage theft is only to more accurately describe what the employee is being deprived of - their wages. It's no different than the fact that we use terms like car theft and identity theft to describe what is being stolen.

As for your mostly nonsensical and not-really-relevant hypotheticals:
  • No one is talking about a business declaring bankruptcy - that's a completely different discussion and no one has brought it up.

  • Your "examples" of the minor and the immigrant are also worthless because we're not discussing employees potentially stealing from employers. That is a separate discussion. But, broadly speaking, an employee can't commit wage theft against an employer because the money flows the other way.

  • If that nanny is entitled to social security contributions, not giving them to her is absolutely wage theft. Simply agreeing to a deal doesn't negate the law, which is in place to try to stop people like this imaginary nanny from being taken advantage of.

I'm going to try one more time to explain this simply, because I have hope that you can understand actual facts.
  • The total amount of compensation in and of itself is not what constitutes wage theft.

  • You also generally can't compare Person A to Person B to figure out if wage theft is going on. You can only look at what Person A was paid compared to what they earned. And completely separately, you look at what Person B was paid compared to what they earned.
    • If Person A has earned $1,000 in a week as an hourly employee and their employer pays them that $1,000, all is good with the world.​
    • If Person B has earned $2,000 in a week as an hourly employee and the employer only pays them $1,900, that's wage theft.​
    • The fact that Person B is making more than Person A is completely irrelevant.​
    • The fact that Person B might be happy with that $1,900 is also irrelevant.
  • Once an hourly employee works past 40 hours, it qualifies as overtime. You can't just say "I'll pay you $1,000 for 50 hours or work." You have to account for those extra 10 hours differently and pay that employee commensurately. Math is hard, I get it. That doesn't change the law. The fact that you want to keep that agreement simple also doesn't change the law.

  • Just because an employer and an employee agree to a deal, it doesn't magically waive away the FLSA nor does it absolve the employer from not paying the employee fairly.

And yes, even though you don't like it, the way jobs are structured is absolutely important. The way the pay is calculated is important. Someone making $1,000 in a week may be getting paid fairly. Someone else making $1,000 in a week may be a victim of wage theft.

You are more than welcome to say "I don't agree with the rules that are in place" or "I think the FLSA should make allowances for XYZ." What you can't definitively say is that some form of wage theft doesn't actually constitute wage theft just because of your feelings. Facts are facts. And they are not on your side in this discussion.

I joked last night about hiring you since you don't think some forms of wage theft are wage theft. But now I feel compelled to ask if you have employees. They may need legal representation.
 

FQDawg

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1. Paying Less Than Minimum Wage

The federal minimum wage guarantees workers a minimum of $7.25 an hour. Many states and cities require an even higher minimum wage. In New York City, for example, employers with more than 11 employees must pay a $15 minimum wage. Paying less than minimum wage violates minimum wage laws.

THIS ISNT AN EXAMPLE OF WAGE THEFT. I’m not really sure what the point is. An example would be Johnny works in New York where he is laid $11/hr illegally when the minimum wage is $15/hr.

2. Not Paying Overtime

Employers must pay overtime for qualifying employees who work more than 40 hours in one week. Some employees may be overtime exempt, meaning their employers are not legally required to pay overtime. For all other employees, denying overtime pay is a form of wage theft.

NOT AN EXAMPLE AGAIN. Just a hypothetical. Are you talking about salary individuals?

3. Automatically Deducting Time for Meal Breaks

In states with unpaid meal breaks, employers may still be required to pay for breaks if the employee performs any work tasks during the break time. This can mean checking emails or answering phone calls. Automatically deducting meal breaks from pay may count as wage theft.

NOT PROOF IT HAPPENS. I’m sure it does but like all these things it’s not the norm.

ALWAYS LOOKING FOR THE BOOGEYMAN.
Those are literally textbook examples of wage theft. It's not really a matter that's up for discussion. It's not a case of looking for the boogeyman. These are things that happen to employees across the country pretty much every day.

You complained last night that "we" were trying to screw working people. So I share some ways working people actually get screwed and your only response is "nu unh." That response seems to indicate that you're actually perfectly fine with working people getting screwed.
 
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TrueMaroonGrind

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I've been there, too. At my first full-time job out of college, I regularly worked 10+ hour days even though I was salaried (and ineligible for overtime) because I was under the mistaken impression that hard work was rewarded. After about a year of that, I realized that not only was I not going to be rewarded for the extra work I was putting in but also that my manager had started shifting more work to me because he knew I'd be there late. Meanwhile, he was "clocking out" at 5 p.m. on the dot.

Now, I am very protective of my time and refuse to do any work I'm not getting paid for. I get paid for 40 hours, so I work 40 hours. I don't even mind the occasional night or weekend for an event or special project but only if it's something I know about in advance and can plan for. And I make sure I keep track of that time and take it as comp time later.
I was in the same working yourself to the bone mindset about 4 years ago. After putting in about 70 hours a week for months, I similarly woke up. Now I am fully in the camp of 40 hours and no more unless totally necessary. My work is done in a timely manner and at the highest of quality.

Other than that my time is my time. No email or messages after work. Call me if you really need me.
 
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johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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I have definitely settled on the idea that you don't really know what you're talking about. You certainly don't understand the law and you're just throwing out opinions and hypotheticals that fit the way you want to see the world even though they have no basis in fact or reality.

You said "Theft is generally defined to be the taking of personal property of another without permission with the intent to deprive them of it." That's another thing you've finally gotten right (Congrats!). Now, just take the next logical step and understand that money that an employee earns is their personal property. If an employer deprives them of that, there's nothing else to call it but theft. The fact that we further specify and call it wage theft is only to more accurately describe what the employee is being deprived of - their wages. It's no different than the fact that we use terms like car theft and identity theft to describe what is being stolen.

As for your mostly nonsensical and not-really-relevant hypotheticals:
  • No one is talking about a business declaring bankruptcy - that's a completely different discussion and no one has brought it up.

You are the one that claimed that it is wage theft anytime an employee isn't paid what they are owed. I am trying to help you understand that you don't even have a functional definition of what wage theft is, much less how different things that are referred to as wage theft would fall under any generally accepted definition of theft. Again, wage theft is a term of art. Things are described as wage theft because certain people want to describe them as wage theft, not because they fit under any generally accepted definition of theft.



  • Your "examples" of the minor and the immigrant are also worthless because we're not discussing employees potentially stealing from employers. That is a separate discussion. But, broadly speaking, an employee can't commit wage theft against an employer because the money flows the other way.

Again, I'm trying to help you understand your ignorance. Just because an agreement is not valid under the law does not mean that participating in the agreement converts it to theft.



  • If that nanny is entitled to social security contributions, not giving them to her is absolutely wage theft. Simply agreeing to a deal doesn't negate the law, which is in place to try to stop people like this imaginary nanny from being taken advantage of.

Why would you assume the nanny is being taken advantage of? Most likely, she is taking higher cash compensation than she would get over the table, and she is also gaining by not having to report it as taxable income. If she is really lucky, she is married and will still have the benefits of social security. She is a participant in illegal activity. Nothing is being taken from her without her permission. She is most likely coming out ahead financially by getting more than she would receive in the future, even without a discount. At the very worst, she is trading future benefits for current compensation and whether you feel like she is coming out ahead or behind depends on what you think the appropriate discount rate is. But under your "definition" of theft, she is a victim of theft by receiving more money than she would be entitled to if the law was followed.


I'm going to try one more time to explain this simply, because I have hope that you can understand actual facts.
  • The total amount of compensation in and of itself is not what constitutes wage theft.
I have never claimed that it is.


  • You also generally can't compare Person A to Person B to figure out if wage theft is going on. You can only look at what Person A was paid compared to what they earned. And completely separately, you look at what Person B was paid compared to what they earned.
    • If Person A has earned $1,000 in a week as an hourly employee and their employer pays them that $1,000, all is good with the world.​
    • If Person B has earned $2,000 in a week as an hourly employee and the employer only pays them $1,900, that's wage theft.​
    • The fact that Person B is making more than Person A is completely irrelevant.​
    • The fact that Person B might be happy with that $1,900 is also irrelevant.​

I've never argued about what constitutes wage theft except to point out that your definition of it is wrong. Just pointed out that wage theft is not a type of theft the way grand larceny is a type of theft.



  • Once an hourly employee works past 40 hours, it qualifies as overtime. You can't just say "I'll pay you $1,000 for 50 hours or work." You have to account for those extra 10 hours differently and pay that employee commensurately. Math is hard, I get it. That doesn't change the law. The fact that you want to keep that agreement simple also doesn't change the law.

Some math is hard for some people. For example, some people would claim that an hourly worker with a $10 an hour wage that gets paid $550 for a 50 hour week is a victim of wage theft.



  • Just because an employer and an employee agree to a deal, it doesn't magically waive away the FLSA nor does it absolve the employer from not paying the employee fairly.

It doesn't remove them from the requirements of the FLSA. FLSA doesn't have anything to do one way or the other with paying an employee fairly. You can pay somebody much less than what the vast majority of people would consider fair under FLSA. You can pay them considerably more than what the vast majority of people would consider fair and still run afoul of FLSA.

And yes, even though you don't like it, the way jobs are structured is absolutely important. The way the pay is calculated is important. Someone making $1,000 in a week may be getting paid fairly. Someone else making $1,000 in a week may be a victim of wage theft.
I've never claimed that it wasn't legally important or disputed what's included in the term of art "wage theft".

You are more than welcome to say "I don't agree with the rules that are in place" or "I think the FLSA should make allowances for XYZ." What you can't definitively say is that some form of wage theft doesn't actually constitute wage theft just because of your feelings. Facts are facts. And they are not on your side in this discussion.

I've never claimed "wage theft" doesn't claim "wage theft". You took an unsupportable position and you know it so you keep retreating to a tautology and pretend that you think the statement "wage theft is wage theft" is the same as "wage theft is theft". Which again, is as true of a statement as "Arkansas is Kansas" or "west Virginia is Virginia". Just because a word is in a term, doesn't mean that the term is just a subset of the word.
I joked last night about hiring you since you don't think some forms of wage theft are wage theft. But now I feel compelled to ask if you have employees. They may need legal representation.
 

The Peeper

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Feb 26, 2008
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You are the one that claimed that it is wage theft anytime an employee isn't paid what they are owed. I am trying to help you understand that you don't even have a functional definition of what wage theft is, much less how different things that are referred to as wage theft would fall under any generally accepted definition of theft. Again, wage theft is a term of art. Things are described as wage theft because certain people want to describe them as wage theft, not because they fit under any generally accepted definition of theft.



Again, I'm trying to help you understand your ignorance. Just because an agreement is not valid under the law does not mean that participating in the agreement converts it to theft.



Why would you assume the nanny is being taken advantage of? Most likely, she is taking higher cash compensation than she would get over the table, and she is also gaining by not having to report it as taxable income. If she is really lucky, she is married and will still have the benefits of social security. She is a participant in illegal activity. Nothing is being taken from her without her permission. She is most likely coming out ahead financially by getting more than she would receive in the future, even without a discount. At the very worst, she is trading future benefits for current compensation and whether you feel like she is coming out ahead or behind depends on what you think the appropriate discount rate is. But under your "definition" of theft, she is a victim of theft by receiving more money than she would be entitled to if the law was followed.



I have never claimed that it is.



I've never argued about what constitutes wage theft except to point out that your definition of it is wrong. Just pointed out that wage theft is not a type of theft the way grand larceny is a type of theft.



Some math is hard for some people. For example, some people would claim that an hourly worker with a $10 an hour wage that gets paid $550 for a 50 hour week is a victim of wage theft.



It doesn't remove them from the requirements of the FLSA. FLSA doesn't have anything to do one way or the other with paying an employee fairly. You can pay somebody much less than what the vast majority of people would consider fair under FLSA. You can pay them considerably more than what the vast majority of people would consider fair and still run afoul of FLSA.


I've never claimed that it wasn't legally important or disputed what's included in the term of art "wage theft".



I've never claimed "wage theft" doesn't claim "wage theft". You took an unsupportable position and you know it so you keep retreating to a tautology and pretend that you think the statement "wage theft is wage theft" is the same as "wage theft is theft". Which again, is as true of a statement as "Arkansas is Kansas" or "west Virginia is Virginia". Just because a word is in a term, doesn't mean that the term is just a subset of the word.
Yall please take this article and go read it, somewhere else. Biggest takeaway I got from this, "“By federal law, tips belong to the people who earned them, and employers are prohibited from withholding or redirecting these earnings.”:


Article: Back wages for tip sharing, overtime, etc
 
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Seinfeld

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2006
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Try me. If you have data to back up what you're saying, I'd be happy to read it. I'm not even saying you're wrong. It's entirely possible that employees steal from each other more than employers steal from employees. But that doesn't change the fact that employers still steal from employees. Wage theft is not something I've made up. It's very real.

There are plenty of other ways that an employer can underpay an employee beyond "taking cash tips." Here are just a few examples:



This is a link to the website of a law firm that represents wait staff who have been the victims of wage theft. They give some broad examples of the cases they've handled:



Here are some actual stats:



I honestly don't get why you guys are so adamant that wage theft isn't happening.
I’m not here to jump into this argument about the definition of theft, but I do think it’s worth pointing out that these billion dollar “stats” are based on a subjective survey of 234 tip earning workers
 

paindonthurt

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2009
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Those are literally textbook examples of wage theft. It's not really a matter that's up for discussion. It's not a case of looking for the boogeyman. These are things that happen to employees across the country pretty much every day.

You complained last night that "we" were trying to screw working people. So I share some ways working people actually get screwed and your only response is "nu unh." That response seems to indicate that you're actually perfectly fine with working people getting screwed.
You shared hypotheticals.
They likely happen some.

you didn’t share any actual examples of it happening or any statistics of it happening.

so I’ve got more anecdotal evidence than you.

and again no one is doing a study on employees stealing from employees or employers. At least not as mainstream as the other studies.
 

The Peeper

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Feb 26, 2008
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You shared hypotheticals.
They likely happen some.

you didn’t share any actual examples of it happening or any statistics of it happening.

so I’ve got more anecdotal evidence than you.

and again no one is doing a study on employees stealing from employees or employers. At least not as mainstream as the other studies.
No I Didnt Press Conference GIF by GIPHY News
 

FQDawg

Well-known member
May 1, 2006
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You shared hypotheticals.
They likely happen some.

you didn’t share any actual examples of it happening or any statistics of it happening.

so I’ve got more anecdotal evidence than you.

and again no one is doing a study on employees stealing from employees or employers. At least not as mainstream as the other studies.

If you want statistics, here you go. This is the Department of Labor chart where they track wage violations by category. The charts at the link go back to 2007. Food service is No. 1 in number of cases every single year.

Screen Shot 2023-06-21 at 3.05.24 PM.png

If you want specific examples of wage theft happening, here you go. This list is not remotely exhaustive. These are stories on cases where a restaurant has either settled or had a judgement against them. I did not include any of the countless stories where lawsuits have been filed or where allegations have been made but the case has yet to be resolved.
 

FQDawg

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May 1, 2006
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It made me break the post up into parts, so here is the rest of the example list:
But the winner for wackiest story has to be:

I didn't do a deep dive of other industries but it's not just restaurants, though:

Lastly, a very quick search showed several studies about employees stealing from restaurants. I haven't read any of these but at first glance it looks like it's a topic that's studied at least every few years. And that's to say nothing about all the articles that offer tips on how restaurants can identify and prevent employee theft:
 

paindonthurt

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2009
9,529
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If you want statistics, here you go. This is the Department of Labor chart where they track wage violations by category. The charts at the link go back to 2007. Food service is No. 1 in number of cases every single year.

View attachment 355286

If you want specific examples of wage theft happening, here you go. This list is not remotely exhaustive. These are stories on cases where a restaurant has either settled or had a judgement against them. I did not include any of the countless stories where lawsuits have been filed or where allegations have been made but the case has yet to be resolved.
Wage theft exist. We get it.
Theft exist.

People are $h1tty. Employers and employees.

move along.

1,117,000 arrest a year for larceny, burglary and motor vehicle theft fyi.
 
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FQDawg

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May 1, 2006
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Hilarious- this article was pushed to me by Google yesterday!
Musta been since I had Google something related to wage theft.
I'd seen it the other day but hadn't read it. I can't say hiring someone to pose as a priest in order to get dirt on my employees is something I would ever think of doing. People are crazy.
 

MSUDOG24

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Mar 31, 2021
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I had to go back to the top and remind my self this started as our boy dorn bitching about tipping during a recent bookstore visit.
 
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vhdawg

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Sep 29, 2004
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Welp this thread got ruined. Go start another one if you want to have another summer thread about how tipping sucks.
 
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