OT: Will remote work as it is stay around?

[Bulldog Bruce]

Why as Humans do we expect there to be a single or best answer to complex questions? This is just like EVs v Gas, The Math Teaching discussion, any GOAT discussion or Left Twix v Right Twix. Remote working has it's place and is part of a bigger complex solution. Has it been underutilized in the past? I think the last few years have proven that. However it definitely isn't a total solution. There is something to be said for just being around mentors and people that do it right that helps especially younger people. If there is team work involved, it is probably better for some people to be in the same room. Some people might thrive fully remote, but others don't.

So I don't see us going fully back to pre-covid workplaces, but the fear that got pushed on the public can be mitigated by getting back to some human contact and having formal work places again. Need to find a good balance and getting the most out of each person that works best for them.

 

[dog12]

Don't you still gotta eat lunch? If you just go make a sammich, weren't you going to do that anyhow?

That's what I was thinking too. People that used to work at the office and eat out for lunch are still eating out for lunch while working from home. Those people are just eating lunch in restaurants located in the suburbs (or, elsewhere), rather than in the downtown restaurants of the city.

I agree this is a problem for the downtown restaurant owner (fewer customers), but that's his problem and he has to deal with it . . . just like every other business owner that deals with various problems.

 

[HRMSU]

My current employer's CEO was a very "we need to be in the office to collaborate effectively" guy pre-covid, but it never made a ton of sense because most development teams in the company had a few members in other locations due to mergers/acquisitions. Even though everyone was in an office, we still had all our meetings on some kind of video conferencing software. Right before covid, I think we had like 5 in Atlanta, 3 in Vermont, and 1 in Maryland. Our switch to fully remote was actually an improvement in overall team communication during meetings because no side conversations could happen that the microphone wouldn't pick up.

We "returned to the office" in July 2020, but we were on some kind of weird rotation where only half the office came in each week, you still did all your meetings on zoom because close to half your team wasn't in Atlanta, and all the office food perks were gone (snacks/free lunch). I think that lasted less than 2 months before COVID cases spiked again and they made the office completely optional again.

Summer 2021 saw a true mandatory return to office, but we were given the ability to opt in to a hybrid schedule of 2-5 days per week in the office. On the 2 days in the office, we all became acutely aware at how distracting our open office is. Pretty much everyone just put on noise canceling headphones and didn't speak. I think we did that for a month or so before all development teams went remote first. We are growing so fast that only recruiting in Atlanta was basically impossible, and our CEO had to acknowledge that out productivity had increased during remote work. There are a handful of folks in our division that still go to the office every day, but that's purely by preference. They do all their meetings on zoom with the ret of us.

I've had all kinds of in office interview requests in the last year or so, and I just outright refuse them. Going remote gave me hours of my day back, lets me see my kids far more than I would normally have been able to, and just leaves me with way more energy in general at the end of the work day.

The next big shift that needs to happen is how US companies handle vacation, sick leave, and paternity/maternity leave. I recently turned down an offer from a company that had 3 weeks of combined vacation and sick leave for an entire year! My current employer gives us unlimited PTO, and I'm averaging like 30-35 full/partial days off the last 3 years (not including sick days). Throw another 6 weeks off the last time I had added a kid to the brood, and it's very easy to retain employees here.

The one downside to unlimited is you don't bank it to get paid out at the end, but I've had coworkers take like a month off to go visit family members in other countries, and no one bats an eye as long as you give enough notice to plan around it.

Great to hear unlimited PTO works at your place. Too often it's an Accounting maneuver ( no vacation accrual required) masquerading as an Employee perk that carries different levels of peer pressure and guilt for exercising it even close to the level standard vacation would award.

 

[statedogg1]

If you have tried to buy anything in the past year, I don't think you can argue that productivity is in the tank. Its an unsustainable situation. Maybe remote work is OK in some situations, but overall its less productive. I understand remote working isn't the only contributor to the empty selves and out of stock norm, but flexible work = long waits for stuff.

 

[Cooterpoot]

Once every 2 weeks for us, but it's pretty flexible. I've gotten twice as much done since getting out of the office. I have fewer distractions and meetings now. Plus, I get more done at home after work and more exercise.
No tits here to look at and distract me either.

 

[Cooterpoot]

17

 

[thatsbaseball]

^^^This is real life. The business owner/manager has to make a decision if it works for his/her business and make the call. One size just doesn't fit all.

 

[Xenomorph]

Got news for everybody with this line of thinking .. I’ve been hiring people for 15 years. Other than that real year of Covid when gubmint money was in full swing, it’s no tougher to hire now than at any other time in my career.

The general/skilled labor force has always been a shitshow.

 

[thatsbaseball]

He wanted to sign the checks and probably have his picture on them.

 

[tacodawg]

Got news for everybody with this line of thinking .. I’ve been hiring people for 15 years. Other than that real year of Covid when gubmint money was in full swing, it’s no tougher to hire now than at any other time in my career.

The general/skilled labor force has always been a shitshow.

Wait until you learn about government contractors hiring non skilled apprentices more than skilled 1st class folks with years of experience because the apprenticeship’s make the company more money than the guys who are actually skilled at what they do. That’s a doozy.

 

[thatsbaseball]

If you've never heard of Matt Mullenwg you need to read up on him

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/12/business/matt-mullenweg-automattic-corner-office.html

 

[thatsbaseball]

Damn the NY Times just google him and start reading. Super interesting guy and a great employer.

 

[grimedawg1]

My child recently graduated and has moved to a large city working for a large company. They are remote. He’s not making office contacts and is not receiving training. Totally remote really does stink for someone just starting out their career.

 

[paindonthurt]

I’ve been working a hybrid role since 2014.

I’m way more productive at home than I am in an office. Lot of people coming in your office and distracting you onsite. Working in a job trailer now with 3 other project managers and can’t get **** done.

Either a contractor is coming in or just BSing or someone asking questions.

Is onsite work important? Sure but a hybrid role is way more efficient and effective for output.

Things that are important?
Setup a dedicated work space without tv in the room.
Desk, shelves, filing cabinet, printer, etc.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Meh, I screw off about the same amount at home as in the office. If not for the commute, I prefer to work in the office, but saving 75 minutes a day overrides that. For introverts and young folks, there is a good benefit for physically being around coworkers.

 

[paindonthurt]

He’s 100% right that a large amount of people will 17 off if not micromanaged.

Sad and unfortunate but it’s human nature.

 

[Cooterpoot]

Got news for everybody with this line of thinking .. I’ve been hiring people for 15 years. Other than that real year of Covid when gubmint money was in full swing, it’s no tougher to hire now than at any other time in my career.

The general/skilled labor force has always been a shitshow.

This is fact!

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

Why as Humans do we expect there to be a single or best answer to complex questions? This is just like EVs v Gas, The Math Teaching discussion, any GOAT discussion or Left Twix v Right Twix. Remote working has it's place and is part of a bigger complex solution. Has it been underutilized in the past? I think the last few years have proven that. However it definitely isn't a total solution. There is something to be said for just being around mentors and people that do it right that helps especially younger people. If there is team work involved, it is probably better for some people to be in the same room. Some people might thrive fully remote, but others don't.

So I don't see us going fully back to pre-covid workplaces, but the fear that got pushed on the public can be mitigated by getting back to some human contact and having formal work places again. Need to find a good balance and getting the most out of each person that works best for them.

^Truth.

Giant mixed bag. Some jobs involve a ton of wasted time. Some don't. Supply and demand will sort this out. Eventually. But our terrible corporate management in this country will go kicking and screaming away from their terrible models. Those that don't value their employees will wind up with poor workers that know how to look busy and kiss @ss. Those that value their employees will wind up with top talent and top profits.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Depends on if lunch is more of social thing with coworkers. If I don't have anyone to go with I would rather eat a sandwich or something I brought or cooked at home. If I'm working from home I rarely go out for lunch

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

All depends on how well your team can communicate in the modern era ', texts, video chat etc. I've been on teams that have excelled remotely and others who can't stand it to do both. I will say it's a lot harder to join a big org via remote and harder to make connections with out someone making them for you via chat or video conference.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

One thing I have found those is we still use teams and video conferencing a lot even when we are in the office. Instead of going to a a large conference room. I feel like communication is key either way. My previous boss sucked at communicating so nobody new what was going on with each other and little visibility on tasks and milestones being met or not met until someone complained. If your team or boss doesn't communicate well then remote is not for your team.

 

[bulldogcountry1]

My experience is that those who are prone to being lazy have gotten worse. Those who appreciate their jobs are more productive because a lot of the worthless BS that occurs when everyone is in the office disappeared. There is more time to get real work done, and morale is much higher.

 

[Drebin]

True story.

Like most, our company went full remote during covid. The owner of the company is old school and has the mindset that he wants his people in the office. He thinks that if he can't see you working, he can't trust that you're working. Anyway, when we went remote, his expectations were very low that folks would be productive. But the truth is that his expectations were exceeded, so the perception was that WFH didn't have a negative impact. Later, when folks were asked to return to the office, production went up 20%. We didn't really see the 20% drop in production when we went remote because the output was still higher than what was expected.

I'm sure my company isn't the only one that's seen results like this. So I always say remote work is like a lot of things - it's a pendulum swing. Eventually it will swing back to more people in the office.

 

[dog12]

I’ve been working a hybrid role since 2014.

I’m way more productive at home than I am in an office. Lot of people coming in your office and distracting you onsite. Working in a job trailer now with 3 other project managers and can’t get **** done.

Either a contractor is coming in or just BSing or someone asking questions.

Is onsite work important? Sure but a hybrid role is way more efficient and effective for output.

Things that are important?
Setup a dedicated work space without tv in the room.
Desk, shelves, filing cabinet, printer, etc.

Remote/hybrid work won't be going away. If you don't like remote/hybrid work, then that's too bad. You'll just have to get used to it.

Upper management cannot force employees to come back to the office, because doing so would kill employee morale and make them completely unmotivated . . . or, inspire them to quit and find more flexible work elsewhere.

Your point about having a dedicated work space at home is a good one. I can foresee in the near future all newly-built homes having either 1 or 2 offices fully outfitted for work at home setups.

In the future, for many career paths, a person will alwas work at home even though he may receive promotions, change jobs, etc.

 

[Drebin]

Why would you want to lose employees in a time where it's difficult to replace them? You just going to pretend like production didn't get better during remote working? Plenty of data on this.

As I said in another post, production being "better than originally feared" is not the same thing as "better." At my company, production spiked when people returned to the office - and with fewer people.

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

Or is it time to get back in the office. I see a more Hybrid workplace going forward.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/we-need-...-to-end-silence-on-remote-work-153902316.html

There's a reason why Amazon treats its warehouse employees like ****, and its top talent like kings. Too many business execs look at Amazon and learn the wrong lesson, and decide there's profit in treating talent like ****. They think the numbers back them up, but thats because the costs are hidden and dont readily show up on a spreadsheet. Creative technical solutions to hard problems doesn't come from cubicals and mindlessly adhering to the 40 hr workweek.

Replaceable employees will wind up back at the office. Suck it up, you're replaceable. Talent will wind up with better terms...though many companies will resist, and will shoot themselves in the foot over and over again until the lesson is learned.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Remote is awesome. More productive. Happier employees. Expanded talent pool.

I worked remote until I had to retire. I actually worked two jobs. One I had to VPN and "punch the clock" and the other I was left at my own devices but I had to deliver a creative product from raw materials via upload for various vendors. I had no problem with either except once with the creative because of the raw materials. I worked various times and came up with a good system. I'm sorry that my health made me retire because I had a good time. If I can ever get on my feet again (looking good now) I think I will hang my hat on the consulting rack.

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

There will still be more remote/hybrid work than historically for sure. But the push is big to get people back into the office. I'm not convinced it will help that much though.

I have worked remotely my entire career effectively. Some people are cut out for it and others are not. A good rule of thumb, the cohort in the office that is playing candy crush, checking facebook, packing up at 4:45 every afternoon, and burning tires at 5:00 to get out of there are not working at the office either. The show up early and stay late crowd will get it done from anywhere.

My counterpoint is that the bigger issue to the lack of productivity since Covid has less to do with remote work and a lot more to do with the lack of giving a ****. When you lay everyone off and give them tons of stimulus and perks to not work, they tend to think if it happens again uncle sam will have their backs. Service in everything from retail to construction to B2B has been absolute dog **** for the last 2 years. I am not talking about shortages and supply chain delays, I am talking about not getting phone calls returned for weeks at a time. No follow ups after deadlines are missed by "salespeople." Empty glasses sitting on tables at dinner until you walk back to the kitchen to get it yourself only to find everyone in the back chatting.

While it will suck personally, there is a big part of me that hopes we have a real recession with big time layoffs. No fed support either. Let some of these 17ers that are coasting through their jobs actually experience some struggles so they appreciate gainful employment down the road. Right now there is not a day that goes by that I don't personally experience **** service somewhere and it seems to be getting worse.

It wasn't even 15 years ago when the great recession hit. I **** you not, as coworkers, customers, and other colleagues were getting laid off en masse... I though every single day from about mid 2008 until 2011 or so was going to be my last. There was no backstop. We worked our assess off and because of it, we built a booming economy that lasted a decade.

"The tree of capitalism must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of lazy asses and malingerers. It is its natural manure."

ThomasJefferson'sSocks


ETA. The BLS confirms productivity is down considerably in 2022. In fact, the last 2 quarters (-7.4% and -4.6%) are the worst declines in productivity since the data was collected in the 1940's. On top of that, because of inflation and pay raises added to the output decline per hour worked, the unit labor costs are up 10.8% YOY. I don't want to hear anymore of this greedy corporations are causing inflation ********. Labor costs are up 10.8% YOY and inflation is at 8.5%. The companies aren't even raising prices as much as their labor cost increase. So the labor component of a widget is up 10.8%, but the widget is only up 8.5%.

View attachment 24934

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm

My guess is this is a combination of a few things, like supply chains and covid disruptions... But lazy asses are definitely apart of it.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

 

[dog12]

I don't see it as my responsibility to keep any/all of those folks in business.

Apparently, the mayors of New York and Washington DC disagree with you. They do think we should be forced to go back into the office, so their cities can thrive.

This raises an interesting question . . . could 100% remote work possibly end large cities at some point in the future? If I can work from home and live anywhere, then why would I ever choose to live in a large city with its overpriced real estate, bad schools, crime and filth?

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Productivity was in the tank because it basically had to be. Things are getting better now that covid restrictions are mostly gone.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

My experience is that those who are prone to being lazy have gotten worse. Those who appreciate their jobs are more productive because a lot of the worthless BS that occurs when everyone is in the office disappeared. There is more time to get real work done, and morale is much higher.

It has a lot to do with the work ethic of the people you hire but that's true for any job. If you are lucky enough to hire good people they will show you pretty early on

Home or office for my creative job is hard to pick. My competitive side made the office good at times but I pushed myself too hard at times. I was more creative AND productive at home but missed the daily interaction. A hybrid might be the answer.

 

[turkish]

My company was offering a flexible workplace pre-covid. They also started investing heavily in high-value engineering centers in Asia about the same time. Smart employees know it’s best to differentiate themselves from employees with the same degree making a quarter the salary.

And unlimited PTO is a joke.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

There's a reason why Amazon treats its warehouse employees like ****, and its top talent like kings.

In fairness, Amazon treats all of their employees like ****. In the tech world, they're considered a concentration camp. They work the longest hours and have the shittiest pay in big tech. Until this spring, they had salaries capped at $160k. Which for big tech in Seattle/Silicon Valley is like teacher pay in MS. They did have stock based compensation, but it is much less desirable than actual salary for most people due to vesting schedules and tax implications.

So much of their top people were quitting during Covid they had to raise the salary cap to $350k this year.

 

[Dawg_4_lifes]

I am way more productive working from home. Our office was cubicles and very loud. There were constant distractions all day long, and meetings to discuss the possibility of having meetings.
I now do not have to fight traffic twice a day, I can take or grab the kiddo from school, start dinner, or take a quick break and do some chores. I have teammates that nap during lunch.
I have a dedicated workspace, but I have my guitars up there and some workout equipment. I use one to relieve stress and the other to get the blood pumping.
It is not for everyone though. We have had some ppl quit. We had an issue with one employee hitting the bottle starting at about noon everyday.

 

[GloryDawg]

I work at home a good bit and my employers know for a fact if I am logged into my phone and working or not. The rule is I have to have Wi Fi. If the employee doesn't have the Wi Fi the equipment will not work and they cannot work at home. If the employer can't figure out if you are working while working remotely from home they either need to purchase the technology or make you come into the office. It is human nature to 17 off if possible. Even at the office.

 

[Chesusdog]

I have worked for my company for almost 10 years. None of my day to day work actually requires me to be face to face with a person. I go into the office twice a week and those are my least favorite days of the week. The work is the same either way and the only real difference is being grossly unhappy about getting dressed and adding 30 minutes to my daily commute. The day they bring up returning to the office full time I will start looking for another job.

 

[ezsoil]

As I said in another post, production being "better than originally feared" is not the same thing as "better." At my company, production spiked when people returned to the office - and with fewer people.

This is the answer ....remote pandemic working exposed how many employees weren't needed .... this was certainly the case for the public sector..as we saw MOST federal employees aren't needed ..and to a much lesser extent the state and local government. You can't measure just how useless government employees are because there isn't any accountability... the private sector has the backstop of bankruptcy if the inefficiency persists.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

It has a lot to do with the work ethic of the people you hire but that's true for any job. If you are lucky enough to hire good people they will show you pretty early on.

Try to manage unionized employees (where the union has a lot of power). Upper management still wants goals met, but doesn't really want you hold employees accountable (unless it is really an egregious situation). Most are good, but you still have those situations where one employee is a cancer but keeps hanging on.

 

[archdog]

Let’s see what happens when employers start cutting salaries of remote only workers.

Why in the heck would they cut salaries? Either you can be as productive remotely or not. I own a business. I pay for production and value to the company. If someone is doing their job, then.... he makes his salary. That is how the value is calculated.

I don't care if someone takes 20 weeks off a year, if they get done what I assign them and the work is quality.

 

[aspendawg]

Remote work should absolutely stay around. I've just hired 8 people internally at my company (we are allowed to post every 3-5 years) and I stole all kinds of talent, especially young, but more so people with kids who wanted the freedom to move somewhere close to family or where childcare cost less because I told them 'I don't care where you work from as long as you perform'. Our office is in Houston which as far as city footprint goes is the size of Connecticut..one of the women I hired had a 1.5 hour one way commute. Her current business was forcing her to come back into the office after almost 3 years of remote work and the most profitable quarter in the history of the company.

Also, Houston isn't as cheap as it used to be... I pay 3,000.00 a month for 2 kids in child care. Yes, you read that right... and no it's not a private or luxury daycare center. We would love to move somewhere smaller and cheaper where our money would go further but the looming 'hybrid' work makes you move to a city all in the name of coming to the office 20% of the time..

There are exceptions obviously. Smaller businesses - the model may not work but if you work for a larger company or corporation then there's no need for a massive office or forcing people to work.