Penn State withdraws from U.S. News law school rankings
- Thread starter BobPSU92
- Start date
I wonder if the university at large is next to do so, if that is possible. I don't favor dropping rankings. Despite their imperfections, they are still a form of accountability and provide a gauge relative to other universities.
Believe something like 20% of law schools in USNew's'rankings have dropped out. So what do i have to say to The Schwartz: nothing like leadering ,*******.
The university at large? Don't get ahead of yourself. We're talking serious money there.
Read quite a few articles on USNWR rankings as it relates to medical schools withdrawing from the survey. USNWR said much of the info we use is public information and we will do the best we can with what we got .
www.wsj.com
Rebellion Over College Rankings Seems Likely to Fail
U.S. News & World Report and others turn to public data to determine the standings as some schools end their cooperation with the publication’s surveys.
www.wsj.com
If your numbers are spiraling downward and you don't want to make an effort to improve just quit. Seems like a reasonable plan.
To be clear, the PSU statement did not simply announce their intent to "remove themselves from the rankings" - there was an explanation given as to WHY they removed themselves from the rankings. That reason was given as:
"The U.S. News rankings methodology is inconsistent with our schools’ core values of excellence in teaching, scholarship, service and community.
Furthermore, both law schools are actively engaged in equity and inclusion work, and the U.S. News rankings undermine these efforts by deploying a methodology that functions to exclude minoritized communities from gaining access to and participating in legal education and the profession, among other negative impacts."
FWIW - the ranking methodologies that seem to be the cause of so much disconcert, are attached below.
US News' methodology for Law School rankings:
Methodology: 2023 Best Law Schools Rankings (usnews.com)
Quality assessment was composed of two indicators of expert opinion that contributed 40% to the overall rank.
Peer assessment score (weighted by 0.25): Law school deans, deans of academic affairs, chairs of faculty appointments and the most recently tenured faculty members rated programs' overall quality on a scale from marginal (1) to outstanding (5), marking "don't know" for schools they did not know well enough to evaluate. Sixty nine percent of recipients responded.
Lawyers and judges assessment score (0.15): Legal professionals – including hiring partners of law firms, practicing attorneys and judges – rated programs' overall quality on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (outstanding), marking "don't know" for schools they did not know well enough to evaluate.
Placement Success: 26%
Placement success is composed of five indicators that total 26% (previously 25.25%) of each school's rank. The two most heavily weighted indicators pertain to employment.
Employment rates for 2020 graduates 10 months after graduation (0.14) and at graduation (0.04): For both ranking factors, schools received maximum credit when their J.D. graduates – in alignment with ABA reporting rules – obtained long-term jobs that were full time, not funded by the law school, and where a J.D. degree was an advantage or bar passage was required.
Bar passage rate (0.03, previously 0.0225): U.S. News revamped its treatment of bar passage rates to incorporate all graduates who took the bar for the first time. Computations were further modified to de-emphasize the impact of geography on law schools' relative performance.
Average debt incurred obtaining a J.D. at graduation (0.03) and the percent of law school graduates incurring J.D. law school debt (0.02): According to a 2021 American Bar Association report, many new lawyers are postponing major life decisions like marriage, having children and buying houses – or rejecting them outright – because they are carrying heavy student loan debts.
Selectivity: 21%
Selectivity is a proxy of student excellence. Its three indicators contributed 21% in total to the ranking.
Median Law School Admission Test and Graduate Record Examination scores (0.1125): These are the combined median scores on the LSAT and GRE quantitative, verbal and analytical writing exams of all 2021 full- and part-time entrants to the J.D. program.
Median undergraduate grade point average (0.0875): This is the combined median undergraduate GPA of all 2021 full- and part-time entrants to the J.D. program.
Acceptance rate (0.01): This is the combined proportion of applicants to both the full- and part-time J.D. programs who were accepted for the 2021 entering class. A lower acceptance rate scored higher because this indicated greater selectivity.
Faculty, Law School and Library Resources: 13%
The average spending on instruction, library and supporting services (0.09) and the average spending on all other items, including financial aid (0.01): The faculty resources calculation for instruction, library and supporting services is adjusted for cost of living variations in law school salaries between school geographic locations by using publicly available Bureau of Economic Analysis Regional Price Parities index data.
Student-faculty ratio (0.02): This is the ratio of law school students to law school faculty members for 2021. The student-to-faculty ratio definition that U.S. News uses is a modified version of the Common Data Set's definition, a standard used throughout higher education based on the ratio of full-time equivalent students to full-time equivalent faculty.
Library resources and operations (0.01, previously 0.017): Following additional examination of their data, U.S. News has discontinued using the seven library indicators used once in the previous ranking. In their place is one new indicator: The ratio of full-time equivalent professional librarian positions as of June 30, 2021 (or the close of a law school's fiscal year) to fall 2021 full-time equivalent law students.
Big Ten Law School Rankings as per USNews:
Michigan 10th in nation
Northwestern 13
UCLA 15
USC 20
Minnesota 21
Iowa 28
Ohio State 30
Illinois 35
Indiana 43 (T)
Wisconsin 43 (T)
Maryland Baltimore 47
PSU/Dickinson 58
PSU/Univ Park 64
Nebraska 78
Rutgers Newark 86
Mich State 91
Purdue - No Law School
"The U.S. News rankings methodology is inconsistent with our schools’ core values of excellence in teaching, scholarship, service and community.
Furthermore, both law schools are actively engaged in equity and inclusion work, and the U.S. News rankings undermine these efforts by deploying a methodology that functions to exclude minoritized communities from gaining access to and participating in legal education and the profession, among other negative impacts."
FWIW - the ranking methodologies that seem to be the cause of so much disconcert, are attached below.
US News' methodology for Law School rankings:
Methodology: 2023 Best Law Schools Rankings (usnews.com)
Ranking Indicators
Quality Assessment: 40%Quality assessment was composed of two indicators of expert opinion that contributed 40% to the overall rank.
Peer assessment score (weighted by 0.25): Law school deans, deans of academic affairs, chairs of faculty appointments and the most recently tenured faculty members rated programs' overall quality on a scale from marginal (1) to outstanding (5), marking "don't know" for schools they did not know well enough to evaluate. Sixty nine percent of recipients responded.
Lawyers and judges assessment score (0.15): Legal professionals – including hiring partners of law firms, practicing attorneys and judges – rated programs' overall quality on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (outstanding), marking "don't know" for schools they did not know well enough to evaluate.
Placement Success: 26%
Placement success is composed of five indicators that total 26% (previously 25.25%) of each school's rank. The two most heavily weighted indicators pertain to employment.
Employment rates for 2020 graduates 10 months after graduation (0.14) and at graduation (0.04): For both ranking factors, schools received maximum credit when their J.D. graduates – in alignment with ABA reporting rules – obtained long-term jobs that were full time, not funded by the law school, and where a J.D. degree was an advantage or bar passage was required.
Bar passage rate (0.03, previously 0.0225): U.S. News revamped its treatment of bar passage rates to incorporate all graduates who took the bar for the first time. Computations were further modified to de-emphasize the impact of geography on law schools' relative performance.
Average debt incurred obtaining a J.D. at graduation (0.03) and the percent of law school graduates incurring J.D. law school debt (0.02): According to a 2021 American Bar Association report, many new lawyers are postponing major life decisions like marriage, having children and buying houses – or rejecting them outright – because they are carrying heavy student loan debts.
Selectivity: 21%
Selectivity is a proxy of student excellence. Its three indicators contributed 21% in total to the ranking.
Median Law School Admission Test and Graduate Record Examination scores (0.1125): These are the combined median scores on the LSAT and GRE quantitative, verbal and analytical writing exams of all 2021 full- and part-time entrants to the J.D. program.
Median undergraduate grade point average (0.0875): This is the combined median undergraduate GPA of all 2021 full- and part-time entrants to the J.D. program.
Acceptance rate (0.01): This is the combined proportion of applicants to both the full- and part-time J.D. programs who were accepted for the 2021 entering class. A lower acceptance rate scored higher because this indicated greater selectivity.
Faculty, Law School and Library Resources: 13%
The average spending on instruction, library and supporting services (0.09) and the average spending on all other items, including financial aid (0.01): The faculty resources calculation for instruction, library and supporting services is adjusted for cost of living variations in law school salaries between school geographic locations by using publicly available Bureau of Economic Analysis Regional Price Parities index data.
Student-faculty ratio (0.02): This is the ratio of law school students to law school faculty members for 2021. The student-to-faculty ratio definition that U.S. News uses is a modified version of the Common Data Set's definition, a standard used throughout higher education based on the ratio of full-time equivalent students to full-time equivalent faculty.
Library resources and operations (0.01, previously 0.017): Following additional examination of their data, U.S. News has discontinued using the seven library indicators used once in the previous ranking. In their place is one new indicator: The ratio of full-time equivalent professional librarian positions as of June 30, 2021 (or the close of a law school's fiscal year) to fall 2021 full-time equivalent law students.
Big Ten Law School Rankings as per USNews:
Michigan 10th in nation
Northwestern 13
UCLA 15
USC 20
Minnesota 21
Iowa 28
Ohio State 30
Illinois 35
Indiana 43 (T)
Wisconsin 43 (T)
Maryland Baltimore 47
PSU/Dickinson 58
PSU/Univ Park 64
Nebraska 78
Rutgers Newark 86
Mich State 91
Purdue - No Law School
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I might have missed a word or two but here is my tally of terms in regards to PSU’s “interim” response
1. Equity / Equality = 4
2. Inclusion = 2
3. Tied at one (1) mention: Justice; Excellence, Engagement, Championship (that one is going to sting Franklin) ….
I especially loved this hurled insult to equitable inclusion ….
“Relying heavily on a subjective rating submitted by law school administrators and faculty as well as attorneys and judges”.
Aren’t those the individuals marginally qualified to contribute to such rankings?
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Not only has Penn State become this woke bastian, they now don't want to be held up to scrutiny. Sad.
I, for one, won't stand for people involved in teaching and practicing law determining what's important in teaching and practicing law. We need more random people who watched Matlock and have been brainwashed into using terms like "woke" to make that determination.
Other awful "woke bastians [sic]" include (2023 US News Law School rankings in parantheses): Yale (#1), Stanford (#2), Harvard (#4t), Columbia (#4t), Penn (#6), NYU (#7), UVA (#8), Cal-Berkeley (#9), Michigan (#10), Duke (#11), Northwestern (#13), Georgetown (#14), UCLA (#15).
Obviously these guys don't want to be held up to scrutiny either, since they're so unsuccessful in the US News rankings.
That is why #1 Yale led this charge of dropping out, and now 12 others in the top 15 law schools, according to US News, have followed suit. Because they're spiraling downward and don't want to make an effort to improve.
I remember the good ole days when Yale really tried, and they were number ... uh ... well they were so good you couldn't even give them a number. Or something.
There are, generally, two types of universities that have jumped on the "rankings are bad" bandwagon - those who are so well-known / well-regarded / well-financed that they feel no need to concern themselves, and can afford to signal their virtue in any manner they choose, with no damaging repercussions. And a second group comprised of those who's rankings are less than flattering, and feel they would be better served by trying to replace "rankings" with "virtue".
I don't know about all of that, but we didn't even make it into the Top 50 so now we're blaming the ratings instead of our own incompetence. Ugh
Here I thought you'd fix all of this? What are you waiting for?
And we certainly know where the the PSU law school falls when it comes to those two categories (#2 - we don't like our rating so we'll argue that it's a poor rating system). I'm sooooo proud of our Provost.
As a member of the bar for nearly 50 years I've seen the quality of lawyer produced by scores of law schools. Based upon those observations, I would rank Penn State Law just about where US News does (#64 at University Park and #58 at Dickinson). Neither is a top 50 school. That said, I have seen excellence in graduates from low end law schools and mediocrity from Ivy League grads. The bottom line is, every law school basically does one thing. They teach you how to think like a lawyer. Once you pass the bar your success as a lawyer is determined more by your own intelligence, and efforts, and less by where you got your degree.
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Geez, Penn State isn't very shy about calling DEI students inferior.
Interestingly, Penn State Law's percentage of students from "minoritized communities" is lower than the same percentage at many (most?) of the universities ranked above Penn State, Obviously, something doesn't add up - rationality-wise.
Except, as has already been shown, that's not at all what's happening here. The very best law schools (and many others) ... as ranked by the folks at US News themselves ... have (almost universally) taken a stand against US News' ranking criteria. So there's zero reason to suspect that PSU is now jumping aboard this train of protest as some cover as to why it's not doing as well as it would hope.
In fact, some in the legal community suspect they are using it for cover. I am not one of those, but I won't dismiss the idea. I will say that even graduates of Penn State Law think the school should be much better. Penn State will never reach the level of Michigan but it should be as good as Iowa or Ohio State.
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Interesting article.
Total Victory: DeSantis' New Florida College Triumph Is the Blueprint for Recapturing 'Woke' Institutions Across the Country - Revolver News
DeSantis' short march through the institutions presents a crystal clear blueprint for all Republican states to follow.
www.revolver.news
The stat with law schools that is vital, percentage of students pass bar exam on first taking. i speak with experience.
How does the U.S. News rankings methodology exclude minoritized communities from gaining access to and participating in legal education?
One would think that might be the FIRST question that comes to mind, after reading that press release.
It is one thing to "take your ball and go home". A simple choice that any person or institution is free to make.
It is quite another to give a very vivid description/excuse - posited as the overwhelming demand factor for "going home" - without the existence of a clear and rationale connection between the two.
IMO the bar exam is too easy. Something like a 75% first time pass rate. PSU is over 90%.
Compare that to the CPA exam where the first time pass rate is closer to 50%
On average, the person who made it through Law School that sits for the exam is probably smarter than the person who made it through Accounting School and sits for the CPA. Just a guess, and yes I said "on average".
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No, its not. Though you are in the right area code.
It is around 80%
Bar Passage Outcomes Reports 2021.doc (live.com)
FWIW: When Law Schools are evaluated ("rated"
) one of the metrics that is almost always used is "Bar Passage Rate vs Peers"i.e: When graduates of school X (lets say PSU Law) take the bar in state Y (lets say Pennsylvania) what percentage of them pass, relative to all graduates who take the exam in state Y.
PSU's gross passage rate in PA is, as per the ABA 509 Form above, around 83%, while overall passage rate for PA is around 80% - that would be considered a "+3%" for PSU in PA. i.e., better than average. In other states, PSU does less well (as indicated in the 509)
About 80% of PSU Law graduates - according to the 509 form - take the bar exam.
A high-end school - Yale for instance - is around a +20%, with nearly 100% passage rates, and nearly every graduate taking, and passing, the bar. Michigan, the most highly rated Big10 law school, is also about a +20%, with nearly 100% of their graduates taking the exam.
[509 Forms are available - they are required to be publicly available - for all accredited Law Schools. Easy GOOGLE]
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Bar exams vary from state to state - does the CPA exam? And lawyers study for three years - would think they’re prepared for the Bar Exam. That’s if they even have to take it - Wisconsin has Diploma Privilege for example.
I see that out-of-state Tuition is hard to pass up even for Law School. This assumes that most of the 60 students who sat for the bar in another state were not from PA. I also see that they had two with Diploma Privilege which were counted as pass. In 2020 Wisconsin was the only state that offered to admit Law School graduates to bar without taking an exam.No, its not.
It is around 80%
Bar Passage Outcomes Reports 2021.doc (live.com)
FWIW: When Law Schools are evaluated ("rated"
i.e: When graduates of school X (lets say PSU Law) take the bar in state Y (lets say Pennsylvania) what percentage of them pass, relative to all graduates who take the exam in state Y.
PSU's gross passage rate in PA is, as per the ABA 509 Form above, around 83%, while overall passage rate for PA is around 80% - that would be considered a "+3%" for PSU in PA. i.e., better than average. In other states, PSU does less well (as indicated in the 509)
About 80% of PSU Law graduates - according to the 509 form - take the bar exam.
A high-end school - Yale for instance - is around a +20%, with nearly 100% passage rates, and nearly every graduate taking, and passing, the bar. Michigan, the most highly rated Big10 law school, is also about a +20%, with nearly 100% of their graduates taking the exam.
[509 Forms are available - they are required to be publicly available - for all accredited Law Schools. Easy GOOGLE]
I'm not so sure of that. I understand that law school is graduate vs accounting which is undergraduate but I also know a lot of law students took less rigorous majors when they were undergraduates.
I'm not taking a shot at lawyers. I'm just saying that any test that has an 85%+ first time pass rate doesn't seem that rigorous.
P.S. One of my kids is a lawyer. They told me they learned more in 4 months studying the bar exam prep course than they did during 3 years of law school.
I went by this that says PSU 92%, Pitt 85%No, its not. Though you are in the right area code.
It is around 80%
Bar Passage Outcomes Reports 2021.doc (live.com)
FWIW: When Law Schools are evaluated ("rated"
i.e: When graduates of school X (lets say PSU Law) take the bar in state Y (lets say Pennsylvania) what percentage of them pass, relative to all graduates who take the exam in state Y.
PSU's gross passage rate in PA is, as per the ABA 509 Form above, around 83%, while overall passage rate for PA is around 80% - that would be considered a "+3%" for PSU in PA. i.e., better than average. In other states, PSU does less well (as indicated in the 509)
About 80% of PSU Law graduates - according to the 509 form - take the bar exam.
A high-end school - Yale for instance - is around a +20%, with nearly 100% passage rates, and nearly every graduate taking, and passing, the bar. Michigan, the most highly rated Big10 law school, is also about a +20%, with nearly 100% of their graduates taking the exam.
[509 Forms are available - they are required to be publicly available - for all accredited Law Schools. Easy GOOGLE]
2020 Law School Rankings - Bar Exam Pass Rate (High to Low)
The bar exam passage rate among law school graduates is an essential measure as to how effectively the school prepares its students to practice law. See the ranking.
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