I read that the California bar exam is more difficult than most states.
Penn State withdraws from U.S. News law school rankings
- Thread starter BobPSU92
- Start date
How much money could be saved by consolidating two law schools into one? Penn State whines about not getting enough state support -- why would any politician takes the pleas seriously when there is such an obvious waste of money as this (one among many)
Understandable.I went by this that says PSU 92%, Pitt 85%
2020 Law School Rankings - Bar Exam Pass Rate (High to Low)
The bar exam passage rate among law school graduates is an essential measure as to how effectively the school prepares its students to practice law. See the ranking.www.ilrg.com
I don't know exactly how that site came to those numbers - but the footnotes indicate that they used "2017 Test" numbers.
"State & Bar Passage Rates
The bar passage rates reflect those among first-time test takers for the winter and summer 2017 administrations of the bar examinations."
The 509 Forms - the standard forms required from each institution, show PSU's passage rate at 83% (you can google the exact same required form for each law school - I linked PSU's above).
Was PSU's 2017 rate an outlier? I don't know
Was that site using some other metric? I don't know
Did PSU's rates drop significantly since then? I don't know
But the two most recent years for PSU (both PSU Law and Dickinson) were approximately 83%
I think this entire situation raises the whole discussion of core competencies. Should a school like Penn State try to be all things to everyone? Or in doing so do you dilute everything a bit?
We started as an AG school in the middle of nowhere. It's taken decades to get the business, engineering, etc. schools to a level of national prominence. Is it worth the investment and focus to do so for the law school as well?
Or do you stick to the half dozen or so things you do tremendously well and continue to pour resources and focus into them?
Just food for thought.
We started as an AG school in the middle of nowhere. It's taken decades to get the business, engineering, etc. schools to a level of national prominence. Is it worth the investment and focus to do so for the law school as well?
Or do you stick to the half dozen or so things you do tremendously well and continue to pour resources and focus into them?
Just food for thought.
Or just burn both down to the ground. U.S. News probably would approve.
Bigger is better. More, more, more. Spread the money thinner and thinner, then b|tch for a lot more.
Strategery.
“Woke bastion?” You mean like that center of suburban charm and urbanity otherwise known as Alpharetta, Georgia?
I think all organizations want to grow. That includes government, charities, private businesses, and universities.
Can you imagine a charity saying they've achieved their initial mission so they're closing? Can you imagine a university saying they've got enough money so they're backing off on fundraising?
Woke is happening everywhere, but I wonder to what extent the CULTURE. at Penn State has changed since Neeli’s arrival. In other words, what do folks on the inside see? DEIB was a significant part of the job description when Neeli was hired, and it is part of most everything Penn State does now administratively. It seems to have gone beyond just words and now is dictating action (or inaction).
at Penn State has changed since Neeli’s arrival. In other words, what do folks on the inside see? DEIB was a significant part of the job description when Neeli was hired, and it is part of most everything Penn State does now administratively. It seems to have gone beyond just words and now is dictating action (or inaction).The bar exam is MUCH more difficult than the CPA exam. Orders of magnitude tougher. Really smart folks shut down their lives for a few months and go into a coopy hole of studying, studying, caffeine, bad food and more studying in order to pass the Bar Exam. By contrast, you can ace the CPA exam by studying for it like you would any course you'd take in college (so, after class, or after work, for a little bit).
What do you call the person who graduates last in his class at PSU Hershey ? Doctor . They pass USMLE and get into good residency programs .
I believe the part that a lot of these rankings are popularity contests.I might have missed a word or two but here is my tally of terms in regards to PSU’s “interim” response
1. Equity / Equality = 4
2. Inclusion = 2
3. Tied at one (1) mention: Justice; Excellence, Engagement, Championship (that one is going to sting Franklin) ….
I especially loved this hurled insult to equitable inclusion ….
“Relying heavily on a subjective rating submitted by law school administrators and faculty as well as attorneys and judges”.
Aren’t those the individuals marginally qualified to contribute to such rankings?
I have NO IDEA how the rankings make it difficult for minorities to get into law school. That sounds like nonsense.
Speaking as a physician myself, it's a crap medical school. Always has been. When politics dictated that they put the school in Hershey they pretty much sealed its fate.
DEIB is the flavor of the month, and it will pass. They all do. Remember how at one point during Fats's tenure everything was cloaked in "entrepreneurial?" Or before that, the theme of "think global, act local" or was it "think local, act global"? Oh, never mind.Woke is happening everywhere, but I wonder to what extent the CULTURE.
Sure, but will it pass during Neeli’s tenure or after? I suspect after. DEIB will be one way how Neeli will mark her tenure.
Doesn't matter because ultimately it will amount to nothing. In the meantime, it will remain an irritant, kind of like that hangnail that won't seem to go away no matter how much it's tended to.
I hate us for no longer being old white men eating scones and spanking it into our lattes without being bothered by "them."Woke is happening everywhere, but I wonder to what extent the CULTURE.
I’ll take “amount to nothing” over doing harm. PSU’s leaderers find plenty of ways to do harm as it is.
On the other hand, the DEIB kick and all the related “efforts”, while amounting to nothing, could get in the way of real progress (that would probably happen by accident).
Not sure that these efforts will do much, if any, harm. What will happen is a repeat of the past. The 'beneficiaries' of the efforts will be those members of the targeted groups who least need assistance. The vast majority who really need help will be ignored and the cycles will continue.
It was an incredibly dumb idea to have two law schools in the first place and I'm glad Neeli came in and fixed it almost immediately. Waste of money for a law school that failed to gain traction on the big stage as one location, to then split into two.
I would add that more important than the bar is job placement and quality of said job. If PSU ever wants to be a prestigious law school it needs to start improving outcomes.
To my eye (untrained on the med side), it seems as if they're moving in different directions. I feel (again subjective) that Hershey is gaining some traction while PSU Law has never been able to do so. Here's to fixing that problem
I would add that more important than the bar is job placement and quality of said job. If PSU ever wants to be a prestigious law school it needs to start improving outcomes.
To my eye (untrained on the med side), it seems as if they're moving in different directions. I feel (again subjective) that Hershey is gaining some traction while PSU Law has never been able to do so. Here's to fixing that problem
Here is a link to a previous (similar) discussion with a link to an interesting Revisionist History segment
Well, they don’t call this the All Knowing Board for nothing. It’s amazing how many multi-dimensional members there are on this board. We can run businesses, public sector organizations and, yes, even a law school or two, all while being first class Power 5 football coaches. Truly impressive. Or full of sh*#t.
Take GE for example though... For years under Jack Welch they cut the bottom performing 10% of their workforce each year. It was about excellence not just growth.
Sadly too many university presidents like to build empires / legacies and universities get overly diversified as a result
Most objective people thought it was dumb for Penn State to get involved in the legal realm at the time and the passage of time has proven them correct
Anyone know the current law school/admissions/hiring culture around rankings and their importance? Wife is a PSU Dickinson Law grad but she’s not a typical ‘lawyer’ - she worked her way up various outfits (federal and private) and is doing very, very well. She had no real interest in practicing though. But a friend of hers, who was going to American Law at night while working, transferred to Michigan for 3L and had job offers before she actually took one class or set foot on campus. Michigan alone was worth that. I guess I’m asking if a lack of ranking will deter applicants (who probably aren’t applying to Harvard or Yale).
Nah. California has one of the lowest passing rates for first time takers, but it also has the most liberal seating policy for their exam. While there are some exceptions, most states generally require that test takers have a juris doctorate from an American Bar Association accredited law school. California does not, and will even seat people who have studied law at unaccredited online law schools. California's lower passing rates are much more indicative of the pool of test takers compared to that of other states than the difficulty of the exam.
Last edited:
Let me disagree just a bit. I agree it is important but there are reasons that people fail other than the law school they attended. I was a "middle of the class" law student but had no problem passing on my 1st attempt. Others, brighter than me, and with better academic records, failed on their initial effort. The reason, in my opinion, is lack of time to prepare after graduation. Its not like you walk out of law school and just take the bar exam. It takes endless hours of preparation. Thanks to my wife working I was able to spend 8 hours a day, on average, between graduation and the exam, studying, taking practice tests, etc. Some people, due to family commitments, or work schedules, don't have that luxury. On the other hand, schools like Columbia, or Yale, often approach a 100% pass rate, so that tells me that the school you attended does matter. I just think preparation, after graduation, is the biggest factor.
Do you think that's because there's a lot of money to be made by lawyers suing organizations for discriminating against minorities/LGBTQIA?
Makes sense. I think most law school grads take the unified bar exam then supplement it with a state exam.
My kid & law school friends apartments were paid through August so they just stayed and studied for 2 months after graduation so they could take the bar exam in July.
Great thread. Old fascist skeletors complaining about "wokeness", people stating that lawyers are smarter than accountants, test board people running their yaps... good times.
I remember the day my Penn State acceptance letter came in the mail like it was yesterday. Then I remember telling my friends in school that I chose Penn State. This was in October of my senior year. The last eight months of high school thrilled to be going to Penn State and no college admissions stress. I was so happy.
I’m such an a$$hole.
I’m such an a$$hole.
I remember the day my Penn State acceptance letter came in the mail like it was yesterday. Then I remember telling my friends in school that I chose Penn State. This was in October of my senior year. The last eight months of high school thrilled to be going to Penn State and no college admissions stress. I was so happy.
I’m such an a$$hole.
It's okay - you didn't know any better.
LOL, this is so not true. The CPA exam is the mother of all exams, it's standard, so not up to states interpretations. Accounting is a science, law is not. The CPA exam is 16 hours, most bar exams are no more than 12. The pass rate for the CPA exam is 50%, give or take in a year. There is not a tax attorney in the country, who has both accomplishments, that would agree with you. Not one.
It's okay - you didn't know any better.
I was young and stupid. Now I‘m old(er) and stupider.
Yeah STEM PhDs don’t show the board much . If you reach for the stars , you might be able to pass the bar exam for a bar-ista.
Last edited:
Uh, yeah, there is. The CPA exam was (comparatively) easy. Barely had to study. The fact that it's a "science" is what makes it quite easy. You just learn the rules and apply them. The bar exam took so much more preparation. There's a reason law firms pay you copious amounts of money to just sit there and study for months, rather than work (and it's not just because you don't have your license to practice at that point in time).
Get unlimited access today.