PSU Academic Metrics

[ValleyForgeLion]

My scorn is for the established cronies that have been hanging around for years and not being held accountable for doing a crap job.

My point exactly.
Right now all we've been able to do is elect someone who is actually speaking at the public meetings (and they should all be public except for compensation and employment issues). And who is willing to vote no. Wagman, Short, and deLevie said they'd fight for Penn State but all I've seen is Wagman enjoying social events and Short veryveryvery interested in NILs. deLevie has vaporized. But he'll reappear, I'm guessing around January.
There should be eight other voices saying 'hold on a minute...'

 

[Pennstatel0]

Penn State’s drop in academic rankings is the worst in the nation. How bad is it? – BARRY FENCHAK

"Penn State must first confront these realities. We have to own the actions which have brought us to this point. The past is behind us, but it’s not very far behind us. We can’t rely on our “brand” to save us, nor can we wallow in paralyzing despair over how far we have fallen. Instead we can draw on our illustrious history for inspiration and face the challenges ahead."

View attachment 364784

Penn State’s drop in academic rankings is the worst in the nation. How bad is it? – BARRY FENCHAK

"Penn State must first confront these realities. We have to own the actions which have brought us to this point. The past is behind us, but it’s not very far behind us. We can’t rely on our “brand” to save us, nor can we wallow in paralyzing despair over how far we have fallen. Instead we can draw on our illustrious history for inspiration and face the challenges ahead."

View attachment 364784

Not sure what ax Barry has to grind.

But no where in his article does he note that the PSU data is based on all campuses, whereas other B10 schools don’t have numerous branch campuses.

I live in MD. Montgomery County and Frederick County have large community colleges. Which serve much the same function as PSU branch campuses.

I agree that’s PA state support for the flagship land grant university is dismal.

But lets compare apples to apples when looking at grad and acceptance rates.

 

[ApexLion]

Look, I'm a numbers guy, PSU alum from a family that supported PSU for more than 40 years. I have four kids and live in NC. I have spreadsheets for every kid, breaking down NCES stats and info from the schools on more than 50 categories, comparing schools both quantitatively and qualitatively. (BTW, the rankings mean little till you look at specific programs, e.g., Biology to med school acceptance).

So where has PSU stood in my kids' college searches?

NOWHERE. Not even close. I have a spouse who is extremely detailed-oriented (Mensa for real and never paid a dime for undergrad and law school, perfect SAT and LSAT scores). I have to say well 'PSU is a great experience', 'its a pretty campus' because I'm unable to get them into the top 15-20 list for my kids' visits based on the very real comparative data. How well does my comment "best football experience" hold up with my wife when discussing spending more than 100k on a child's education? It doesn't.

I'm not kidding guys. Our university has had a problem that has only worsened. Many of us in the leadership of the alum chapters saw this coming in the late 90s. Objectively, this university is not competitive when you look at cost, career aspirations, teaching focus and like I said a host of other criteria that matter to parents who take the time to look.

 

[PSUFTG]

Not sure what ax Barry has to grind.

But no where in his article does he note that the PSU data is based on all campuses, whereas other B10 schools don’t have numerous branch campuses.

I live in MD. Montgomery County and Frederick County have large community colleges. Which serve much the same function as PSU branch campuses.

I agree that’s PA state support for the flagship land grant university is dismal.

But lets compare apples to apples when looking at grad and acceptance rates.

Might want to "grind your axe" with the Dept of Education - who compile the data.
(IPEDS includes all of PSU - as noted in the article, where it states "Penn State data includes aggregate Commonwealth Campuses.")

My guess is they would likely tell you that students who write out checks to the same university, and get diplomas from the same university, are part of the same university. But feel free to give them a call at 800-437-0833.
Of course, increasingly, so many - especially those most at risk - don't actually get diplomas, only IOUs.

But, the larger, and more important question is:
Why have so many things fallen off a cliff over the last decade? And how do we reverse that trend - if we care to?

 

[OaktonDave]

Look, I'm a numbers guy, PSU alum from a family that supported PSU for more than 40 years. I have four kids and live in NC. I have spreadsheets for every kid, breaking down NCES stats and info from the schools on more than 50 categories, comparing schools both quantitatively and qualitatively. (BTW, the rankings mean little till you look at specific programs, e.g., Biology to med school acceptance).

So where has PSU stood in my kids' college searches?

NOWHERE. Not even close. I have a spouse who is extremely detailed-oriented (Mensa for real and never paid a dime for undergrad and law school, perfect SAT and LSAT scores). I have to say well 'PSU is a great experience', 'its a pretty campus' because I'm unable to get them into the top 15-20 list for my kids' visits based on the very real comparative data. How well does my comment "best football experience" hold up with my wife when discussing spending more than 100k on a child's education? It doesn't.

I'm not kidding guys. Our university has had a problem that has only worsened. Many of us in the leadership of the alum chapters saw this coming in the late 90s. Objectively, this university is not competitive when you look at cost, career aspirations, teaching focus and like I said a host of other criteria that matter to parents who take the time to look.

I just went through a college selection process with my son, and my beloved PSU was not competitive. Yes, the College of Business is very good, but there isn't any appreciable difference between the quality of PSU education and the one that he will get at the school he's attending. We're paying $26K per year total cost for him to attend a large university with a great community, pretty campus, and many of the same qualities that drew me to Penn State. Even if I could get in-state rates (I can't), the $38K/per year cost at Penn State would be hard to justify. What exactly would I be getting for the extra $12K?

Pulling back a little, how can Virginia offer quality education at several state universities at a much lower price? It's not because of higher taxes. Where are the PA taxes going and where are the tax dollars that PSU gets going? I'm anything but optimistic that there will be any answers offered and even less optimistic that any answers would result in positive change. I'm 60, and Pennsylvania has been a poorly run, frequently corrupt, mess most of my life. I sincerely hope the best for my home state, but a lot has to change.

 

[ValleyForgeLion]

But no where in his article does he note that the PSU data is based on all campuses, whereas other B10 schools don’t have numerous branch campuses.

Try again, sport.

 

[GrimReaper]

Not sure what ax Barry has to grind.

But no where in his article does he note that the PSU data is based on all campuses, whereas other B10 schools don’t have numerous branch campuses.

I live in MD. Montgomery County and Frederick County have large community colleges. Which serve much the same function as PSU branch campuses.

I agree that’s PA state support for the flagship land grant university is dismal.

But lets compare apples to apples when looking at grad and acceptance rates.

Not entirely accurate. Maryland, I believe, has 10-11 branch campuses. Illinois has two, but enrolls more students at them than PSU does at its branch campuses. Wisconsin has more branches/campuses than PSU depending on how you count them. Rutgers has two branch campuses on which it enrolls 2/3 the number of PSU on its branch campuses.

And if you want to compare apples to apples look at the differences between accountability of other state schools to their legislatures versus PSU. The blame for the funding gap does not rest entirely in Harrisburg.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

I get a kick out of people who judge the university (in either direction) with these "rankings."

Simply put, it is a dick measuring contest for parents/message boards as well as an exercise on who maintains the best level of plausible deniability on responding to inquiries. That is where PSU needs to do better.

Same with averages of standardized test scores. The only folks who care are boomer/GenX parents and grandparents, along with those employed by university marketing.

 

[LionJim]

Not entirely accurate. Maryland, I believe, has 10-11 branch campuses. Illinois has two, but enrolls more students at them than PSU does at its branch campuses. Wisconsin has more branches/campuses than PSU depending on how you count them. Rutgers has two branch campuses on which it enrolls 2/3 the number of PSU on its branch campuses.

And if you want to compare apples to apples look at the differences between accountability of other state schools to their legislatures versus PSU. The blame for the funding gap does not rest entirely in Harrisburg.

About Maryland, to consider Frostburg State a branch campus of College Park would be akin to, I suppose, considering Shippensburg to be a branch campus of PSU-UP. More to the point, I’d venture to guess that Frostburg’s data is not included with UMdCP data.

University System of Maryland Institutions

Read about all of the University System of Maryland Universities and Regional Centers.

www.usmd.edu

 

[GrimReaper]

About Maryland, to consider Frostburg State a branch campus of College Park would be akin to, I suppose, considering Shippensburg to be a branch campus of PSU-UP. More to the point, I’d venture to guess that Frostburg’s data is not included with UMdCP data.

University System of Maryland Institutions

Read about all of the University System of Maryland Universities and Regional Centers.

www.usmd.edu

I stand corrected. UMBC and Eastern Shore enroll roughly the same number of students as Rutgers's branch campuses do.

Maryland, Frostburg, and Shippensburg are state universities. Penn State is not and it will take pains to emphasize it....except when it wants money from Harrisburg.

 

[LionJim]

I stand corrected. UMBC and Eastern Shore enroll roughly the same number of students as Rutgers's branch campuses do.

Maryland, Frostburg, and Shippensburg are state universities. Penn State is not and it will take pains to emphasize it....except when it wants money from Harrisburg.

Is there any way to compare PSU-UP to, say, Maryland College Park, apples to apples? Not that I’ve been studying the data but Maryland’s numbers lately have consistently seemed to beat what is being shown for PSU. How much of this is valid, and how much is simply a statistical illusion?

You say that PSU is not a state school. I don’t get it but won’t argue this point (I know better). Does this then imply that looking for an an apples to apples comparison of PSU and UMd is simply a waste of time?

 

[GrimReaper]

Is there any way to compare PSU-UP to, say, Maryland College Park, apples to apples? Not that I’ve been studying the data but Maryland’s numbers lately have consistently seemed to beat what is being shown for PSU. How much of this is valid, and how much is simply a statistical illusion?

You say that PSU is not a state school. I don’t get it but won’t argue this point (I know better). Does this then imply that looking for an an apples to apples comparison of PSU and UMd is simply a waste of time?

An apples to apples comparison could be done from the Common Data sets of the institutions. S'il vous plait.

You don't get why PSU is not a state school? Compare it's bond indentures (specifically GOBs) to those of what you would normally consider a state school.

 

[bdgan]

Penn State’s drop in academic rankings is the worst in the nation. How bad is it? – BARRY FENCHAK

"Penn State must first confront these realities. We have to own the actions which have brought us to this point. The past is behind us, but it’s not very far behind us. We can’t rely on our “brand” to save us, nor can we wallow in paralyzing despair over how far we have fallen. Instead we can draw on our illustrious history for inspiration and face the challenges ahead."

View attachment 364784

PSU football is tied for 95th in academic progress rate
https://collegefootballnews.com/ran...ress-rate-2023-apr-football-rankings-1-to-133

 

[PSUFTG]

PSU football is tied for 95th in academic progress rate
https://collegefootballnews.com/ran...ress-rate-2023-apr-football-rankings-1-to-133

Yes. Not necessarily congruent which each university's overall academic metrics (some lousy schools have relatively high athletics numbers, and vice versa) , but PSU's rankings among other B10 football programs has been dropping significantly for some time - since Barbour came in.

Last wrote about that a couple years back - looking at the numbers for the entire ICA:
Penn State Athletics: Seven Years of Sandy Barbour, Part II - Academics (substack.com)
I think right now, looking just at football, PSU might be last in the Big Ten, or close to it (not sure about the numbers for the entire ICA without doing some checking) Maryland football under Locks has been terrible, they may be even lower

 

[LionJim]

Very good use of “not necessarily congruent.”

 

[PSUFTG]

I get a kick out of people who judge the university (in either direction) with these "rankings."

Simply put, it is a dick measuring contest for parents/message boards as well as an exercise on who maintains the best level of plausible deniability on responding to inquiries. That is where PSU needs to do better.

Same with averages of standardized test scores. The only folks who care are boomer/GenX parents and grandparents, along with those employed by university marketing.

Simply on "rankings", yes, that would be short-sighted... certainly without closely examining the algorithms (no different than football "rankings" in that regard).

On "data"? Yeah, that is meaningful - as meaningful as one can get.
If you think that not-graduating nearly 1/2 of your lower-income kids is not meaningful, some may disagree.
If you believe that declining yield and quality metrics are unimportant, then you would have a lot of company (Among those who would feel completely comfortable if PSU should simply be a revenue-generating diploma mill, who's most important "investment" is a football program).

It's all a matter of what one thinks is important - and different folks will have different viewpoints. That is the case with everything.

 

[PSUFTG]

Very good use of “not necessarily congruent.”

 

[bdroc]

Yes. Not necessarily congruent which each university's overall academic metrics (some lousy schools have relatively high athletics numbers, and vice versa) , but PSU's rankings among other B10 football programs has been dropping significantly for some time - since Barbour came in.

Last wrote about that a couple years back - looking at the numbers for the entire ICA:
Penn State Athletics: Seven Years of Sandy Barbour, Part II - Academics (substack.com)
I think right now, looking just at football, PSU might be last in the Big Ten, or close to it (not sure about the numbers for the entire ICA without doing some checking) Maryland football under Locks has been terrible, they may be even lower



View attachment 366092

I guess they aren't coming here to play school anymore.

 

[BobPSU92]

I hate us.

 

[LionJim]

I guess they aren't coming here to play school anymore.

I would hate it if you turned out to be right. I’m not willing to give up all we’ve invested in The Grand Experiment for half a century.

 

[StamfordBridgeVikingatLeftOffensiveTackle]

I hate us.

As well you should.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

Simply on "rankings", yes, that would be short-sighted... certainly without closely examining the algorithms (no different than football "rankings" in that regard).

On "data"? Yeah, that is meaningful - as meaningful as one can get.
If you think that not-graduating nearly 1/2 of your lower-income kids is not meaningful, some may disagree.
If you believe that declining yield and quality metrics are unimportant, then you would have a lot of company (Among those who would feel completely comfortable if PSU should simply be a revenue-generating diploma mill, who's most important "investment" is a football program).

It's all a matter of what one thinks is important - and different folks will have different viewpoints. That is the case with everything.

Let me ask you this. How many rankings surveys have you seen and/or filled out?

 

[kgilbert78]

And people get mad at alums who don’t want to give to psu…. That is terrible data

There's a reason. Many of them. actually....

 

[kgilbert78]

I would hate it if you turned out to be right. I’m not willing to give up all we’ve invested in The Grand Experiment for a half-century.

The Great Experiment died a decade ago. NIL was just the final nail in the coffin.

But what we *can* do is stay true to the spirit of the Grand Experiment in our own lives, even though our Alma Mater no longer cares.

 

[bdroc]

I just went through a college selection process with my son, and my beloved PSU was not competitive. Yes, the College of Business is very good, but there isn't any appreciable difference between the quality of PSU education and the one that he will get at the school he's attending. We're paying $26K per year total cost for him to attend a large university with a great community, pretty campus, and many of the same qualities that drew me to Penn State. Even if I could get in-state rates (I can't), the $38K/per year cost at Penn State would be hard to justify. What exactly would I be getting for the extra $12K?

Pulling back a little, how can Virginia offer quality education at several state universities at a much lower price? It's not because of higher taxes. Where are the PA taxes going and where are the tax dollars that PSU gets going? I'm anything but optimistic that there will be any answers offered and even less optimistic that any answers would result in positive change. I'm 60, and Pennsylvania has been a poorly run, frequently corrupt, mess most of my life. I sincerely hope the best for my home state, but a lot has to change.

We wouldn't even consider PSU for our kids because out of state tuition was too high and merit based scholarships were minimal.

 

[LionJim]

We wouldn't even consider PSU for our kids because out of state tuition was too high and merit based scholarships were minimal.

I’ve seen this exact post on this board 500 times. No offense intended.

 

[PSUFTG]

I guess they aren't coming here to play school anymore.

The Great Experiment died a decade ago. NIL was just the final nail in the coffin.

But what we *can* do is stay true to the spirit of the Grand Experiment in our own lives, even though our Alma Mater no longer cares.

The actual Graduation Rates for Football and Men's Basketball - nationwide, not just PSU - tanked so badly several years ago that the NCAA made up a ridiculous new "stat", that had nothing to do with actually graduating student-athletes.
Many of them ("them" being the member institutions) were so embarrassed they didn't want the actual graduation rates to be published.

It is the APR. Basically, every student-athlete is given a "+".... so long as they do not actually flunk out - regardless of if they actually graduate. This actually generates a "large figure", that the casual college sports fan thinks indicates kids actually graduating - which it does not.
Now, from a PSU perspective, relative to other programs, PSU consistently (for decades) ranked highly - whether under the old metric or the new one. Not so much as of late.

 

[Nitwit]

I don’t know how the portal impacts how these calculations are done but I suspect it distorts the calculations. How are athletes who transfer considered? Are they given a + for every year that they are enrolled? What about graduate transfers who already have received a degree elsewhere before transferring in? Seems like a mess to get any meaningful indication of true graduation data. Perhaps that’s what the NCAA wanted? I suspect very few fans actually care.

There are some sports like WVB where the teams seem to have outstanding GPAs, but even then you never know what majors, etc. It is what it is. Basically college athletics is now a professional sports business and perhaps we shouldn’t fret about it. But I don’t like the direction it’s turning but there’s no turning back. I’ll still be a fan but not with the same emotional attachment as I used to be.

 

[Nits74]

I would hate it if you turned out to be right. I’m not willing to give up all we’ve invested in The Grand Experiment for half a century.

Oh, he's right, Jim. It's already happened. Outside of the Ivies and a few other smaller institutions, college football no longer exists.

 

[LionJim]

Oh, he's right, Jim. It's already happened. Outside of the Ivies and a few other smaller institutions, college football no longer exists.

I’ll be dragged out kicking and screaming is all I can say.

 

[psu31trap]

Oh, he's right, Jim. It's already happened. Outside of the Ivies and a few other smaller institutions, college football no longer exists.

What’s the driving force that defines our country? Capitalism!! Well, two or three decades ago, colleges, donors and corporate America saw college football as a money making machine and nothing was going to stop the machine, especially not the NCAA. So, what was the first hurdle in achieving this goal, to severely weaken admission standards, and number two, was to allow athletes to declare early for the NFL draft. Today very little differentiates college sports from professional sports. JMHO

 

[Rick76]

I'm a big believer in root cause analysis. The root cause of PSU's problems is that college is just way too expensive.

Forty years ago when I started my MBA program at PSU, my total tuition cost for all the terms I was at PSU was about $2,500. Today it is at least $60,000. In the same 40 years, CPI is up maybe 250%.

So why has the cost of tuition outpaced inflation by a factor of 10?

I've heard all the excuses: lack of state support, too many administrators, too many profs who don't teach, not enough research dollars, overbuilding, salaries, etc.

Until someone does a good analysis, we'll just get more of the same.

 

[BobPSU92]

I'm a big believer in root cause analysis. The root cause of PSU's problems is that college is just way too expensive.

Forty years ago when I started my MBA program at PSU, my total tuition cost for all the terms I was at PSU was about $2,500. Today it is at least $60,000. In the same 40 years, CPI is up maybe 250%.

So why has the cost of tuition outpaced inflation by a factor of 10?

I've heard all the excuses: lack of state support, too many administrators, too many profs who don't teach, not enough research dollars, overbuilding, salaries, etc.

Until someone does a good analysis, we'll just get more of the same.

You can’t put a price on a mediocre education.

 

[LionJim]

I’ll be dragged out kicking and screaming is all I can say.

Here’s my adaption of Yeats’s September 1913. (It contains one of my favorite lines, “All that delirium of the brave,” just saying.)

“Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet, and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Penn State’s dead and gone,
It’s with Paterno in the grave.”

September 1913

What need you, being come to sense, But fumble in a greasy till And add the halfpence to the pence And prayer to shivering prayer, until You have dried the marrow from the bone; For men were born to pray and save: Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone, It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

www.poetryfoundation.org

 

[GrimReaper]

I'm a big believer in root cause analysis. The root cause of PSU's problems is that college is just way too expensive.

Forty years ago when I started my MBA program at PSU, my total tuition cost for all the terms I was at PSU was about $2,500. Today it is at least $60,000. In the same 40 years, CPI is up maybe 250%.

So why has the cost of tuition outpaced inflation by a factor of 10?

I've heard all the excuses: lack of state support, too many administrators, too many profs who don't teach, not enough research dollars, overbuilding, salaries, etc.

Until someone does a good analysis, we'll just get more of the same.

And an analysis will accomplish what given the mediocrities that lead the nation's universities?

 

[Bison13]

I'm a big believer in root cause analysis. The root cause of PSU's problems is that college is just way too expensive.

Forty years ago when I started my MBA program at PSU, my total tuition cost for all the terms I was at PSU was about $2,500. Today it is at least $60,000. In the same 40 years, CPI is up maybe 250%.

So why has the cost of tuition outpaced inflation by a factor of 10?

I've heard all the excuses: lack of state support, too many administrators, too many profs who don't teach, not enough research dollars, overbuilding, salaries, etc.

Until someone does a good analysis, we'll just get more of the same.

All of those contribute. Any joe blow like us could find a way to cut at least 10% of each of those admin/profs/salary/building items

 

[StamfordBridgeVikingatLeftOffensiveTackle]

You can’t put a price on a mediocre education.

And why would you want to put a price on it? Mediocrity abounds. Let's just celebrate it. All that strive for excellence nonsense is perpetrated by those who've achieved it. Bunch of narcissists. The mediocre loathe the excellent and that is probably, at least in part, why the term narcissist is so overused. It's another way in which the mediocre dominate. They vilify excellence. To paraphrase Jim Morrison, "They've got the success, but we've got the numbers." Let's rock mediocrity! I kid. I kid.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

Son 1 did schreyer, 2 did business school, both hired in senior year and still with the same companies. Both killing it. I have zero complaints (Accept the 40k per ea)

 

[BobPSU92]

Here’s my adaption of Yeats’s September 1913. (It contains one of my favorite lines, “All that delirium of the brave,” just saying.)

“Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet, and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Penn State’s dead and gone,
It’s with Paterno in the grave.”

September 1913

What need you, being come to sense, But fumble in a greasy till And add the halfpence to the pence And prayer to shivering prayer, until You have dried the marrow from the bone; For men were born to pray and save: Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone, It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

www.poetryfoundation.org

 

[BobPSU92]

And an analysis will accomplish what given the mediocrities that lead the nation's universities?