For those who saw the match on TV, was this a takedown by Beau? Jeff Byers radio feed suggested it was.
PSU - Rutgers Dual Thread
- Thread starter Tom McAndrew
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For those who saw the match on TV, was this a takedown by Beau? Jeff Byers radio feed suggested it was.
No worries Lion4ever. It's all in good fun. Tom is passionately loyal to his teams and he knows I'm not.......loyal to HIS teams that is. I do understand the push back.
Tom, many thx for the exceptional PBP. Tough to watch, enjoy and type. Well done sir.
Wouldn't be surprised if Berge were to be at 157 come tournament time. Other things equal, PSU's lineup looks stronger if Berge replaces Negron and Edsell goes at 165. Today got Berge back out on the mat, where he needed to be ASAP.
In real time, I didn't think it was a TD. When I first saw the replay, in slo-mo, I thought it might be a TD. But it wasn't as though there was a TD, and then VanBrill reached back and stuck in a whizzer, which Byers mentioned during the video review. If you take it out of slo-mo, it's a continuous process, and Beau didn't establish control, so no TD, IMHO.
No kidding. Gibbons says some stupid stuff. He actually said we had a pretty soft schedule, not tested. I think ASU and Cornell would disagree with that statement.
Shawver beat the kid from Illinois who gave Ayala all he could handle today, he is decent.
It’s clear there’s something going around besides Covid. I went back to the MD match and CStarr looked a little off, not as aggressive as usual, then Sunday he was on fire. Kerkvliet didn’t wrestle one match because he was under the weather and we had the match locked up. There were a few others I remember as well. I think Drew was hit with whatever those guys had; I believe will see a different guy (better energy) next week when he’s over whatever has him under the weather.
Not to be snarky, but it is “no ****” . I wish I had the skill to find and post that segment with the BTN announcers. Plus the segment with Sammy Brooks mullet on winning the big ten…….more classic “did I just hear what I think I heard?”
Thanks again for the match summaries and links to video highlights. I work Sunday-Thursday and these threads keep me in the loop.
I still think it's remarkable that Aaron Brooks ended up 1) not giving up a TD here, and 2) ended up getting a TD here. I knew when doing the PBP that there was no way I could accurately capture how impressive this short sequence was.
Drew must get more aggressive on his feet. I was at the match today and he stands around and gives up his legs too easy. Needs to get angles and shoot with attitude and finish hard.
Strongly agree we MUST have Berge at 157. No question. 165 is loaded and we need points from Berge. He can definitely AA at 157.
I am not worried about where Berge wrestlers. If he makes us stronger at 165 or 157, thats a win for the team. I like his aggressiveness on his feet today and didnt seem undersized to me/ It was his first match in 10 months. He wrestled well and should get even better. 157 is definitely our weak link, but we have plenty of firepower in the rest of the team to win NCAAs.
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Your comment was "I’ve never seen Penn State wrestlers get ridden like this." I talked about Negron, who was ridden pretty good, and Meredith, who is not the starter at 141.
I don't think you have much of a case with regards to Beau.
In his match with VanBrill, here's what happened:
Per 1: VanBrill never got a TD, so he never was on top of Beau
Per 2: VanBrill started on bottom, escaped, and neither wrestler got a TD
Per 3: Beau took bottom, and started the period with 1:14 in RT. He nearly got a reversal, but couldn't get that so he got the esc. After the esc, his RT was down to 51 sec., so VanBrill rode him for 23 sec., which is not a lot, and it probably would have been less if Beau had not gone for the reversal
TB1: Beau got ridden for 30 sec
TB1: VanBrill got ridden for 30 sec
TB2: Beau got ridden for 30 sec
TB2: Beau elected to start in neutral, so you can't really compare the two in terms of riding in TB2
So in the regular portion of the match, Beau finished with 51 sec of RT, and was only ridden for 23 sec. In TB1, both wrestlers were ridden for 30 sec. And in TB2, Beau was ridden for 30 sec, but then he elected for a neutral start.
I didn't include Beau in my earlier response because I didn't think he was ridden all that much, and the data seems to back my impression.
Good summary Tom and agree with overall assessment.
1 minor correction to this line "TB2: Beau elected to start in neutral..."
VanBrill actually selected neutral per his deferred choice. At start of TB2, VanBrill had choice. He elected to defer. Beau then took down and was ridden out.
Here is the rule that applies in this situation:
Rule 3, Section 14, Art. 3. Dual Meets and Tournaments — Overtime.
a. If the score is tied after the sudden-victory period, the choice of top, bottom, neutral or defer will be granted to the wrestler who scored the first points in regulation time excluding escapes and penalty points. In the second portion of the tiebreaker, the other wrestler will receive the choice of top, bottom or neutral. Riding time of one minute or more for either wrestler shall be included in the determination of who scored the first offensive point.
Can you explain TB2 in layman's terms for me? Beau gets ridden out in TB2. I (perhaps like others) assumed VanBrill goes down and if he escapes, he wins. But...he has one minute of riding time (not subtracting Beau's 30)? So, as it says above, that counts as the first offensive point? Hence, if he goes under, Beau could get a minute as well? But if so, VanBrill would be FIRST to score an offensive point, right? If true, he'd be wise just to let Beau ride him out and he'd win. But that must not be true - I assume they'd go to TB3. So wise choice, I guess. I'm not sure I understand the goal of the rule - I suppose it's to not let overtime go on forever. Still, something doesn't seem right about the rule - it seems to unfairly penalize the 2nd choice wrestler, although maybe VanBrill earned that right by scoring first in regulation. Certainly seems confusing when rules are supposed to eliminate confusion.
Hold on, guys. I'm pretty sure it was Beau's call to go neutral. Van Brill had the option in the first session, and chose down. Beau and the coaches must have felt Beau had a better chance at a takedown than an escape, thus the choice to go neutral.
I thought it was a TD. Beau went behind briefly with van brill having both hands on the mat. I’m no official but that was my immediate reaction at the time.
Hi Sonny.
The reference to the "first point" is during regulation - it has nothing to do with riding time during any of the TB periods. Also, the reference to "first point" in regulation is only to determine who is given first choice in the first TB period.
The rule states exceptions to "first points" - points from escapes and penalty are excluded. However, a net advantage of 1 minute of riding time would be considered "first points". You could end up in OT at the end of regulation in a 1-1 score. Where wrestler A was awarded a penalty point (say illegal cutback) and an escape while being ridden for 1+ minute (let's say 1:20). Wrestler B, who as 1:20 of riding time, then takes down and escapes in something less than 20 seconds thus creating a net riding time differential of 1+ minutes. At end of regulation, Wrestler B would be losing 2-1 on scoreboard, but is awarded riding time point, making the score 2-2 and sending it to OT. In this scenario, Wrestler B would be given first choice in TB1 because he earned the riding time point (remember, escapes & penalty points are excluded.
Beau scored the first points of the match (TD). After the first SV concluded and they were still tied, Beau was given choice. He picked down (did not defer).
After the second SV concluded and they were still tied, first choice in the second TB period flips to the other wrestler - in this case VanBrill.
VanBrill deferred choice and Beau again took down and was ridden for the full period. Setting up the situation where VanBrill had more riding time and as long as he didn't give up any points he would win at end of the TB2, which is exactly what happened.
Originally, the TB periods did not allow for NEUTRAL. Choices were Top, Bottom, or Defer (if you have first choice). This is the how the rule was written and applied for many years.
Goodall pulled one over on the good guys which I bet they don't let happen in future matches. Technically, he could have done the exact same thing in first TB period and won the exact same way. I suspect Goodall didn't have him take neutral because the rule was previously written that TB Riding Time difference only applied after the second TB period. That is no longer the case.
Here is the rule as it is written today:
Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.
The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled with the riding time kept and all match points scored. The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner.
I was an official for 20 years. I watched it several times.
Beau was behind him and VanBrill's hands were in contact with mat, but not beyond reaction time before he threw in the whizzer.
I thought the SV no takedown call/stalemate with about 15 seconds left, was a TD (when watching live). On replay, the official only made it to a 2-count for "Danger" (two separate 2-counts). So I think this also was a good call.
What sucks is that the table apparently put 2 on the scoreboard (according to announcers). VanBrill was stretched out and didn't appear to have a tight grip on Beau's leg. But you can see Beau look at the scoreboard and he just stops trying to score. I'm pretty sure he thought he had won.
Here are the definitions for TD.
Rule 4, Section 2. Takedowns
Art. 1. Match Takedowns. A takedown shall be awarded when, from the neutral position, a competitor gains control of the opponent by taking the opponent down to the mat in bounds and beyond reaction. Exception: Rule 4.2.2.
Art. 2. Hand-Touch Takedown. To award a takedown, reaction time is not required in instances in which a wrestler has rear-standing neutral control of their opponent and from the standing position the defending wrestler's hand comes in contact with the mat. (See Illustrations.)
Art. 3. Neutral Danger Zone Takedown. When in the neutral position, the referee shall announce a neutral danger signal (NDS) anytime a wrestler exposes their shoulders to the mat at any angle less than 90 degrees (neutral danger zone). The danger zone utilizes near fall criteria outlined in Rule 4.5.1, but replaces 45 degrees with any angle less than 90 degrees. The NDS announcement shall occur anytime a wrestler is voluntarily or involuntarily in the neutral danger zone, beyond reaction time, and will continue until the wrestler is out of the danger zone or a takedown is awarded.
Art. 4. Neutral Danger Signal. The NDS is a verbal announcement of the word "danger," followed by a verbal three count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. If the referee reaches the third count and the wrestler is still in the danger zone, the opposing wrestler is awarded a takedown.
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So in TB1 and TB2 when he was ridden the entire times you don’t think that’s a problem? I believe he chose neutral in TB2 because he didn’t think he could ride him again and stood a better chance trying for TD.
I never considered Merideth getting ridden as anything other than expected from a superior opponent.
Did you like watching Negron flat out on his belly.
I think you're reaching. It's not uncommon in TB for the bottom guy to be ridden for 30 seconds. As for TB2, it was not clear at the time who picked what, and as @truth-and-reason has indicated, it was VanBrill's choice, and he picked neutral, so your argument doesn't work in this case.
What does that have to do with Beau? I already addressed Negron being ridden pretty well in an earlier reply to you.
First of all, thank you! Secondly, if that’s layman’s terms, I guess I’m a terrible layman!
So the keys here, as I’m interpreting your explanation are deferring (or not) and the addition of neutral selection, and the fact that riding time advantage counts after TB1. It’s a little chess match that coaches have to either decide quickly or gameplan in advance (given a variety of scenarios).
If Wrestler A rides out period, Wrestler A could choose bottom and hope/expect to escape (and then run) or choose neutral and generally run for 30 seconds. Neutral seems like a logical (wiser) choice. But it seems like you are in better position with second choice (I think).
Jeez, I’m exhausted from trying to understand this OT rule and associated decision-making.
Thank you for this information. I agree with you that I thought BB thought he had the takedown and won based on the scoreboard. But the cool thing about BB is that he didn’t bat an eye and got back to work. And when he lost after a bit of OT confusion and failing to chase down VanBrill, he shook VB’s hand like a man and ran off with his head up and didn’t say a word. Despite the unfavorable result, BB worked his *** off.
Secondly, despite the great information provided and the rules, there remains subjectivity around takedowns. And I do THINK that refs want takedowns to be clearer and less ambiguous during late stages of close matches. So it doesn’t surprise me when fans scream takedown but refs are much more careful about calling a takedown.
It’s also funny as well how what we see as a takedown or not seems to be influenced by who we are rooting for. I don’t think it’s with malice, but I think it’s just human nature. I do wish wrestling fans, in general, could view things more from a neutral perspective. Did Bo pin himself when he spladled Sammy Brooks? Ask any PSU fan, of course not. Ask any Iowa fan, of course he did. Did Hidlay get the takedown on Nolf? PSU fans - no way. NCST fans - absolutely. If you ask me, it’s ludicrous to believe Bo was pinned, and while it was close, Hidlay didn’t get the takedown. But guess who I root for? I try to be objective, but who knows.
Your observations about Beau and how he handled it are spot on. Very mature. Very much like our coaching staff. With his attitude and demeanor, good outcomes are in his future. He is an "anti-victim"!
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