PSU - Rutgers Dual Thread

Dec 23, 2021
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First of all, thank you! Secondly, if that’s layman’s terms, I guess I’m a terrible layman!

Jeez, I’m exhausted from trying to understand this OT rule and associated decision-making.
;)
There really is no "layman's" officiating (but you got the essence of it).
I've played a lot of sports in my life. I was an certified official in 3. By far, the hardest was wrestling (both as a participant and officiating).
The wrestling rules have a multitude of complexity. All of what I wrote here is relatively straight forward after you read it like 5 times and deal with it a couple times in a match.
Believe me, there are some really odd situations that involve "interpretations" and are covered in a whole other book called "Situations" which lays out case-studies. They are fringe situations for sure but happen once every 2 or 3 years if you do a lot of officiating.
Officiating is really hard, especially when you are simultaneously trying to judge things like control, protect both wresters from injury, and look for 50 illegal holds. Throw in end-of-period time expiring and edge calls and most people would ref one bout and then walk off to never be seen on the mat again.
It's challenge and FUN!
 

psupower

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2021
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I was at the match. Remember BB is a 133 or 141 wrestling 149. His height is very difficult to overcome especially against good mat wrestlers. Best we have right now. Believe Van Ness is red shirting to get healthy. Love BB heart but would love for him to create better angles and wrestle with more fire as Cael says.
 
Dec 23, 2021
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My curiosity got the better of me...had to know when the OT rule changed. I was really curious because I don't remember seeing anyone ever elect to take neutral. I've seen the top guy give a point by giving "neutral" on the restart just to save time when they were going to let the person up anyway.
Tracked back through the rule books. The addition of Neutral as a choice in TB was introduced in the 17-18 season. This was also the rule for 18-19 season.
In 19-20 season they introduce Defer as a 4th option.
It will be interesting to see if the tactic of going Neutral now becomes more frequent. I think it we will only see it when the wrestler has no warnings for stalling as VanBrill did on Sunday.
 
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SonnyAbeFan

Well-known member
Oct 30, 2021
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My curiosity got the better of me...had to know when the OT rule changed. I was really curious because I don't remember seeing anyone ever elect to take neutral. I've seen the top guy give a point by giving "neutral" on the restart just to save time when they were going to let the person up anyway.
Tracked back through the rule books. The addition of Neutral as a choice in TB was introduced in the 17-18 season. This was also the rule for 18-19 season.
In 19-20 season they introduce Defer as a 4th option.
It will be interesting to see if the tactic of going Neutral now becomes more frequent. I think it we will only see it when the wrestler has no warnings for stalling as VanBrill did on Sunday.
If you ride out the 30 and have no cautions, you have to choose neutral and then just dance for 30 seconds.
 

SonnyAbeFan

Well-known member
Oct 30, 2021
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Hi Sonny.
The reference to the "first point" is during regulation - it has nothing to do with riding time during any of the TB periods. Also, the reference to "first point" in regulation is only to determine who is given first choice in the first TB period.
The rule states exceptions to "first points" - points from escapes and penalty are excluded. However, a net advantage of 1 minute of riding time would be considered "first points". You could end up in OT at the end of regulation in a 1-1 score. Where wrestler A was awarded a penalty point (say illegal cutback) and an escape while being ridden for 1+ minute (let's say 1:20). Wrestler B, who as 1:20 of riding time, then takes down and escapes in something less than 20 seconds thus creating a net riding time differential of 1+ minutes. At end of regulation, Wrestler B would be losing 2-1 on scoreboard, but is awarded riding time point, making the score 2-2 and sending it to OT. In this scenario, Wrestler B would be given first choice in TB1 because he earned the riding time point (remember, escapes & penalty points are excluded.
Beau scored the first points of the match (TD). After the first SV concluded and they were still tied, Beau was given choice. He picked down (did not defer).
After the second SV concluded and they were still tied, first choice in the second TB period flips to the other wrestler - in this case VanBrill.
VanBrill deferred choice and Beau again took down and was ridden for the full period. Setting up the situation where VanBrill had more riding time and as long as he didn't give up any points he would win at end of the TB2, which is exactly what happened.
Originally, the TB periods did not allow for NEUTRAL. Choices were Top, Bottom, or Defer (if you have first choice). This is the how the rule was written and applied for many years.
Goodall pulled one over on the good guys which I bet they don't let happen in future matches. Technically, he could have done the exact same thing in first TB period and won the exact same way. I suspect Goodall didn't have him take neutral because the rule was previously written that TB Riding Time difference only applied after the second TB period. That is no longer the case.
Here is the rule as it is written today:
Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.​
The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled with the riding time kept and all match points scored. The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner.​
Truth (or others), I have another question about the Rule you shared. It may be a dumb question but they say there’s no such thing as a dumb question (which is not true). Wrestler A gets choice, takes top, and rides out. Now Wrestler B gets choice, takes bottom and escapes after 15 seconds. Wrestler A has more riding time (45 seconds), Wrestler B has one point. Who wins? Or go to SV2? The rule, as I keep reading from above, doesn’t prioritize one over the other?
 

ClarkstonMark

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Oct 12, 2021
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Truth (or others), I have another question about the Rule you shared. It may be a dumb question but they say there’s no such thing as a dumb question (which is not true). Wrestler A gets choice, takes top, and rides out. Now Wrestler B gets choice, takes bottom and escapes after 15 seconds. Wrestler A has more riding time (45 seconds), Wrestler B has one point. Who wins? Or go to SV2? The rule, as I keep reading from above, doesn’t prioritize one over the other?
the guy with the point wins
 

SonnyAbeFan

Well-known member
Oct 30, 2021
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You responded as I expected, but am I crazy in how I'm reading this?

Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.
The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled with the riding time kept and all match points scored. The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner.

Written more simply:
Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.
The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods OR who has a net riding time advantage of at least one second is declared the winner.

The rule doesn't state which takes precedence if one is true for each wrestler.
 

SonnyAbeFan

Well-known member
Oct 30, 2021
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You responded as I expected, but am I crazy in how I'm reading this?

Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.
The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled with the riding time kept and all match points scored. The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner.

Written more simply:
Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.
The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods OR who has a net riding time advantage of at least one second is declared the winner.

The rule doesn't state which takes precedence if one is true for each wrestler.
Truth/Anyone, am I off in my interpretation? I can’t sleep until I fully understand OT!
 

Tom McAndrew

BWI Staff
Staff member
Oct 27, 2021
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You responded as I expected, but am I crazy in how I'm reading this?

Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.
The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled with the riding time kept and all match points scored. The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner.

Written more simply:
Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods.
The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods OR who has a net riding time advantage of at least one second is declared the winner.

The rule doesn't state which takes precedence if one is true for each wrestler.

@SonnyAbeFan

You're messing things up a bit. In your defense, pretty much every match I ref, a coach or a wrestler will tell me what a rule is, or phrase things like "isn't the rule XYZ," and pretty much every single time they get some aspect of it wrong.

I'm not a college ref; I'm a high school and youth ref. That said, the rule book for those levels is pretty much written the same way as the college rule book. It takes a little bit of time to get used to how the rules are presented in the rule book, but most refs figure it out in time.

Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4 is addressing the 1st tiebreaker. Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 3 talks about if no winner is determined during the 2-minute sudden-victory period, and also which wrestler has the choice of positions. Art. 3 also specifies that the two tiebreaker periods will be wrestled to their entirety unless a fall, TF, default or disqualification occurs.

The sentence in Art. 4 that appears to be giving you problems is: "The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner." What that's saying is:
- "at the end of both tiebreakers, the wrestler with the most points" (and since points carry over from regulation, but RT does not, that means the wrestler that outscored their opponent in the two tiebreakers) "wins the dual." This is pretty straightforward -- whoever scores more points during the two tiebreakers wins the match
- since the first clause includes "at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods," the second clause ("or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification") has to be included, since Art. 3 specified that "The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled in their entirety unless a fall, technical fall, default or disqualification occurs." Basically, the second clause is saying that the winner won't be based on most points at the end of both tiebreakers (as the first clause stated), if any of the four incidents occurred during either tiebreaker which would cause the tiebreaker to end before both tiebreakers had been completed to their entirety
- "or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner." This, the third clause, indicates that if the two wrestlers were tied after the two tiebreakers (clause one), or a pin, TF, default, or DQ did not occur during either tiebreaker (clause two), then if either wrestler has a net riding time advantage they will be declared the winner.

If there is no net riding time advantage (clause 3 of Art. 4), then we move on to Rule 2, Section 17, Art. 1 Executing the Second Round of Overtime.

Hopefully, that enables you to sleep tonight. ;)
 

SonnyAbeFan

Well-known member
Oct 30, 2021
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@SonnyAbeFan

You're messing things up a bit. In your defense, pretty much every match I ref, a coach or a wrestler will tell me what a rule is, or phrase things like "isn't the rule XYZ," and pretty much every single time they get some aspect of it wrong.

I'm not a college ref; I'm a high school and youth ref. That said, the the rule book for those levels is pretty much written the same way as the college rule book. It takes a little bit of time to get used to how the rules are presented in the rule book, but most refs figure it out in time.

Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 4 is addressing the 1st tiebreaker. Rule 2, Section 16, Art. 3 talks about if no winner is determined during the 2-minute sudden-victory period, and also which wrestler has the choice of positions. Art. 3 also specifies that the two tiebreaker periods will be wrestled to their entirety unless a fall, TF, default or disqualification occurs.

The sentence in Art. 4 that appears to be giving you problems is: "The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner." What that's saying is:
- "at the end of both tiebreakers, the wrestler with the most points" (and since points carry over from regulation, but RT does not, that means the wrestler that outscored their opponent in the two tiebreakers) "wins the dual." This is pretty straightforward -- whoever scores more points during the two tiebreakers wins the match
- since the first clause includes "at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods," the second clause ("or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification") has to be included, since Art. 3 specified that "The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled in their entirety unless a fall, technical fall, default or disqualification occurs." Basically, the second clause is saying that the winner won't be based on most points at the end of both tiebreakers (as the first clause stated), if any of the four incidents occurred during either tiebreaker which would cause the tiebreaker to end before both tiebreakers had been completed to their entirety
- "or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner." This, the third clause, indicates that if the two wrestlers were tied after the two tiebreakers (clause one), or a pin, TF, default, or DQ did not occur during either tiebreaker (clause two), then if either wrestler has a net riding time advantage they will be declared the winner.

If there is no net riding time advantage (clause 3 of Art. 4), then we move on to Rule 2, Section 17, Art. 1 Executing the Second Round of Overtime.

Hopefully, that enables you to sleep tonight. ;)
Tom, thank you. If I would have read that last night, I never would have slept. Although I will read this 17 more times, I think it's best that I just wait until the end of OT to see whose hand is raised and hope it's the PSU wrestler.
 

Psufan133

New member
Nov 1, 2021
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Hold on, guys. I'm pretty sure it was Beau's call to go neutral. Van Brill had the option in the first session, and chose down. Beau and the coaches must have felt Beau had a better chance at a takedown than an escape, thus the choice to go neutral.
 

Psalm 1 guy

Member
Oct 17, 2021
29
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;)
There really is no "layman's" officiating (but you got the essence of it).
I've played a lot of sports in my life. I was an certified official in 3. By far, the hardest was wrestling (both as a participant and officiating).
The wrestling rules have a multitude of complexity. All of what I wrote here is relatively straight forward after you read it like 5 times and deal with it a couple times in a match.
Believe me, there are some really odd situations that involve "interpretations" and are covered in a whole other book called "Situations" which lays out case-studies. They are fringe situations for sure but happen once every 2 or 3 years if you do a lot of officiating.
Officiating is really hard, especially when you are simultaneously trying to judge things like control, protect both wresters from injury, and look for 50 illegal holds. Throw in end-of-period time expiring and edge calls and most people would ref one bout and then walk off to never be seen on the mat again.
It's challenge and FUN!
Is that Situations publication available for public viewing?
 

Tom McAndrew

BWI Staff
Staff member
Oct 27, 2021
52,261
39,574
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Is that Situations publication available for public viewing?

I'm pretty sure that @truth-and-reason was referencing the Case Book, which goes into detail for each of the wrestling rules, and looks at unusual situations that have arisen and how they should be officiated. For high school & youth rules, registered refs can download the Case Book for free. I believe the public has to pay $10 to purchase the Case Book.

For college wrestling rules, I think the public can access the Case Book at the below link.

 
Dec 23, 2021
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I'm pretty sure that @truth-and-reason was referencing the Case Book, which goes into detail for each of the wrestling rules, and looks at unusual situations that have arisen and how they should be officiated. For high school & youth rules, registered refs can download the Case Book for free. I believe the public has to pay $10 to purchase the Case Book.

For college wrestling rules, I think the public can access the Case Book at the below link.

Yes Tom, I was referring to the case book. Not for the faint of heart. @SonnyAbeFan, I highly recommend you NOT download and read. You will have permanent insomnia. ;)
 
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