Reasonable Expectations for Basbeall

She Mate Me

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Make NCAA tournament at least 80% of the time. Never miss 2 years in a row. Host & win a regional at least 40% of the time. Host a super-regional and make CWS at least 20% of the time. This year is the bare minimum standard for Mississippi State.

You said missing the tourney 20% of the time at a maximum is ok, then you said this season (a reasonably high 2 seed) is the bare minimum. A bit contradictory.

No worries. This season as bare minimum is common among those who want Lemonis outta here.
 

17itdawg

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This is a great discussion. If you look at the state of the program since about 2000, most years the team has been a 2 seed in someone else's regional. If you go back to just the last decade, I went back to 2014 and didn't throw out 2020. State has hosted 3 regionals and 3 supers. State has been in someone else's regional 4 times. Missed the postseason 3 times, 2015, 2022, and 2023. So, in the last decade you've won the SEC regular season once, won the CWS once, been to the CWS 3 times, made 5 super regionals, and been in a regional 7 times.

In my perfect world State would make the CWS every year, host all postseason long, and win a national title every year. That is unfortunately not reality.

I'd say in a decade the goal should be 2-3 CWS trips. Winning the whole thing takes some luck, but getting there gives you a chance.
Making a super 3-4 times.
Top 8 national seed 2 times(IE Hosting both regional and super regional).
Regional host as a 8-16 seed 2 times.
Make a regional 4 times.

That leaves you on average missing the postseason twice a decade.

I think it's pretty reasonable for our program, if we are who we say we are in baseball.

I look at it this way, if you take this year's success and put it in 2023 everyone feels a lot better about the program. Back to back terrible seasons hurt a lot of the goodwill around the program. I'm not sold Lemonis is the guy moving forward. I do recognize that barring him leaving, he's back for 2025. It looks like they'll be replacing a lot to have a successful season next year. If he misses the postseason next year, he's got to go in my opinion.
 

She Mate Me

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This is a great discussion. If you look at the state of the program since about 2000, most years the team has been a 2 seed in someone else's regional. If you go back to just the last decade, I went back to 2014 and didn't throw out 2020. State has hosted 3 regionals and 3 supers. State has been in someone else's regional 4 times. Missed the postseason 3 times, 2015, 2022, and 2023. So, in the last decade you've won the SEC regular season once, won the CWS once, been to the CWS 3 times, made 5 super regionals, and been in a regional 7 times.

In my perfect world State would make the CWS every year, host all postseason long, and win a national title every year. That is unfortunately not reality.

I'd say in a decade the goal should be 2-3 CWS trips. Winning the whole thing takes some luck, but getting there gives you a chance.
Making a super 3-4 times.
Top 8 national seed 2 times(IE Hosting both regional and super regional).
Regional host as a 8-16 seed 2 times.
Make a regional 4 times.

That leaves you on average missing the postseason twice a decade.

I think it's pretty reasonable for our program, if we are who we say we are in baseball.

I look at it this way, if you take this year's success and put it in 2023 everyone feels a lot better about the program. Back to back terrible seasons hurt a lot of the goodwill around the program. I'm not sold Lemonis is the guy moving forward. I do recognize that barring him leaving, he's back for 2025. It looks like they'll be replacing a lot to have a successful season next year. If he misses the postseason next year, he's got to go in my opinion.

Nailed it on the expectations.

I'm not with you on Lemonis unless we just return to total shitshow status next year. I'm not going to hold the last two years against him in perpetuity.
 

johnson86-1

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This year was the minimum after two unacceptable years. Next year is a rebuild, so I wouldn't expect big things.
That's the problem with this year. I don't have any problem with this year as a "high" year if the other two years are decent. But if you're talking about going two years with no post season, getting a 2 seed, and then going without a post season again, that's a tough pill to swallow. Really needs to get another 2 seed next year, even if we're not in the hosting discussion.
 

Dawgg

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1) What are your reasonable expectations for Mississippi State baseball year in and year out?

2) Who have our good coaches been? Justify your expectations in 1 with their records.
1) I've been consistent in saying that making the NCAA tournament is the floor. What happens after you get there, well, that's baseball, but the floor should be making the NCAA Tournament. Miss one, fine, it happens, but miss two in a row? Your job should be on the line.

2) I'll only comment on those in my lifetime. The 'good' coaches have been Polk, McMahon, Henderson, and maybe Lemonis.
Polk 1.0 - Made the NCAA Tournament in 15 of his 22 seasons. Misses were 1976 & 1977 (first two seasons), 1980, 1982, 1986, 1994, and 1995.
McMahon - Made the NCAA Tournament in all 4 of his seasons.
Polk 2.0 - Made the NCAA Tournament in 5 of his 7 seasons. Misses were 2002 (first season back) and 2008 (final season).
Henderson - Made the NCAA Tournament in his only season as head coach.

Maybe Lemonis - Made the NCAA Tournament in 3 of his 5 eligible seasons (2020 was cancelled). Missed 2022 & 2023. I think it's kind of early to say whether he's a good or a bad coach. On one hand, he won the school's first national championship. On the other hand, he's the first coach to miss the NCAA tournament in back to back seasons that weren't his first two seasons since Polk in 1995.

Our worst head baseball coach of my lifetime was easily Cohen (though Cann gets honorable mention) and he still made the NCAA Tournament in 5 of his 8 seasons. Misses were 2009 & 2010 (first two seasons) and 2015. While we're at it, Cannizaro (who could have been a good coach if cell phones were never invented; we'll never really know) made the NCAA Tournament in his only full season.
 
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She Mate Me

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1) I've been consistent in saying that making the NCAA tournament is the floor. What happens after you get there, well, that's baseball, but the floor should be making the NCAA Tournament. Miss one, fine, it happens, but miss two in a row? Your job should be on the line.

2) I'll only comment on those in my lifetime. The 'good' coaches have been Polk, McMahon, Henderson, and maybe Lemonis.
Polk 1.0 - Made the NCAA Tournament in 15 of his 22 seasons. Misses were 1976 & 1977 (first two seasons), 1980, 1982, 1986, 1994, and 1995.
McMahon - Made the NCAA Tournament in all 4 of his seasons.
Polk 2.0 - Made the NCAA Tournament in 5 of his 7 seasons. Misses were 2002 (first season back) and 2008 (final season).
Henderson - Made the NCAA Tournament in his only season as head coach.

Maybe Lemonis - Made the NCAA Tournament in 3 of his 5 eligible seasons (2020 was cancelled). Missed 2022 & 2023. I think it's kind of early to say whether he's a good or a bad coach. On one hand, he won the school's first national championship. On the other hand, he's the first coach to miss the NCAA tournament in back to back seasons that weren't his first two seasons since Polk in 1995.

Our worst head baseball coach of my lifetime was easily Cohen (though Cann gets honorable mention) and he still made the NCAA Tournament in 5 of his 8 seasons. Misses were 2009 & 2010 (first two seasons) and 2015. While we're at it, Cannizaro (who could have been a good coach if cell phones were never invented; we'll never really know) made the NCAA Tournament in his only full season.

That's a lot of typing to completely miss what Cohen was brought in for and what he inherited. Using his first two seasons to call him the worst coach of the last 50 years is, to put it kindly, flawed logic.
 

Leeshouldveflanked

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That's the problem with this year. I don't have any problem with this year as a "high" year if the other two years are decent. But if you're talking about going two years with no post season, getting a 2 seed, and then going without a post season again, that's a tough pill to swallow. Really needs to get another 2 seed next year, even if we're not in the hosting discussion.
Unless Lemonis pulls some magic in the Portal we aren’t making Hoover next year, much less a Regional.
 
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Dawgg

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That's a lot of typing to completely miss what Cohen was brought in for and what he inherited. Using his first two seasons to call him the worst coach of the last 50 years is, to put it kindly, flawed logic.
Who was Cohen better than?
 

fang

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Not low just reasonable. We went thru a 6 year period that drastically blew our expectations out of the water. It was unreasonable to continue to expect that.. and it spoiled some of our fan base.

being consistently in the post season, always being in Hoover, never completely sucking, hosting every other year, making a run Omaha every 4-5 years…. Isn’t low… it’s top notch
What was happening during that stretch (awesome btw), besides turmoil and change, that produced those results?
 

IBleedMaroonDawg

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I'm not gonna give up on this season just yet. I don't have a lot of faith in scoring, but I think we can pitch with anyone until we get to Omaha. I hope we get some heat in our lineup from somewhere.

I'll wait until it seasons over before I give the coaches any grades. I also want to see what players we lose at that time and then we can think about what players are needed for next season. We seem to have found a good place to start, but we don't know what the transfer portal is gonna do for us and against us. I know I keep saying this a lot, and I will say it one more time... we do know that we need to have a different approach at the plate as a team.
 

OG Goat Holder

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Make NCAA tournament at least 80% of the time. Never miss 2 years in a row. Host & win a regional at least 40% of the time. Host a super-regional and make CWS at least 20% of the time. This year is the bare minimum standard for Mississippi State.
We’ve hosted 6 times in 25 years (the modern era). 24%. We’ve won 4 more regionals. So I think you meant host OR win a regional? Because that’s exactly 40%.
 

She Mate Me

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That's a lot of typing to completely miss what Cohene was brought in for and what he inherited. Using his first two seasons to call him the worst coach of the last 50 years is, to put it kindly, flawed logic.

He was damn sure better than the Polk he was replacing. Polk was a fine coach, but he was clearly losing his edge at the end.

Obviously comparing him to what Henderson did in a partial single season is pretty ridiculous.

My comment was about your use of data. You know how negative our trajectory was in the final year of Polk. Cohen turned that around and had us in the natty series within 5 years setting us up for the best run in our history considering the higher level of competition these days.
 
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patdog

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He was damn sure better than the Polk he was replacing. Polk was a fine coach, but he was clearly losing his edge at the end.

Obviously comparing him to what Henderson did in a partial single season is pretty ridiculous.

My comment was about your use of data. You know how negative our trajectory was in the final year of Polk. Cohen turned that around and had us in the natty series within 5 years setting us up for the best run in our history considering the higher level of competition these days.
Cohen rebuilt our program from nothing. He had his faults for sure. But we were 1 bad hire away from being an afterthought in college baseball.
 

GloryDawg

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Should always go to the SEC tournament and always go to the Regionals. Down year is not making a Super Regional.
 

Dawgg

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He was damn sure better than the Polk he was replacing. Polk was a fine coach, but he was clearly losing his edge at the end.

Obviously comparing him to what Henderson did in a partial single season is pretty ridiculous.

My comment was about your use of data. You know how negative our trajectory was in the final year of Polk. Cohen turned that around and had us in the natty series within 5 years setting us up for the best run in our history considering the higher level of competition these days.
So… nobody?

You can say he was better than Polk’s last year, but you can’t say he was better than Polk overall. Not credibly.

Also, to be clear, I’m not saying Cohen was a bad coach vs the world at large, but he’s been the worst multi-year Mississippi State head baseball coach in my lifetime. Lemonis could dethrone him, but as of now, Cohen is the worst. And if you read my post, you’ll see that even Cohen, the worst multi-year baseball head coach in my lifetime, made it to the NCAA Tournament more than he didn’t, which was the entire context of my post, Nelle. I was justifying my expectations for the program with how each of the head coaches in my lifetime met those expectations.
 

She Mate Me

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So… nobody?

You can say he was better than Polk’s last year, but you can’t say he was better than Polk overall. Not credibly.

Also, to be clear, I’m not saying Cohen was a bad coach vs the world at large, but he’s been the worst multi-year Mississippi State head baseball coach in my lifetime. Lemonis could dethrone him, but as of now, Cohen is the worst. And if you read my post, you’ll see that even Cohen, the worst multi-year baseball head coach in my lifetime, made it to the NCAA Tournament more than he didn’t, which was the entire context of my post, Nelle. I was justifying my expectations for the program with how each of the head coaches in my lifetime met those expectations.

This isn't worth a response beyond what I've already said. Best wishes Sheila.
 

The Cooterpoot

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Cohen rebuilt our program from nothing. He had his faults for sure. But we were 1 bad hire away from being an afterthought in college baseball.
Every coach since Polk has taken us to the CWS (Canz Asst and players did). We were nowhere close to an afterthought.
 
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17itdawg

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I find the Cohen criticisms as a baseball coach interesting. His first two seasons were his worst. He brought toughness and a dirt bag mentality back to the program. It took a while to get it off the ground because his personality can be a bit polarizing to say the least. 2015 he completely turned it around in one season to win the sec the next year. For all his faults as an AD. Dude was actually a solid to good coach. As much credit as Lemonis and Cann get for the title in '21. Cohen had just as much of a hand in it for my money.
 
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17itdawg

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Nailed it on the expectations.

I'm not with you on Lemonis unless we just return to total shitshow status next year. I'm not going to hold the last two years against him in perpetuity.
It's less about holding it against him again next year more about that would be 3/4 of years being bad. As long as he makes a regional I have no issue bringing him back and fully extending his contract because next year should be more of a down year.
 

Called3rdstrikedawg

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Nailed it on the expectations.

I'm not with you on Lemonis unless we just return to total shitshow status next year. I'm not going to hold the last two years against him in perpetuity.
I am! He let something happen that should not have. Two straight years!
 

ZombieKissinger

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Mine are NCAA 8 of 10, win regional 4 of 10, win super 2 of 10. Good coaches have been Polk 1, McMahon (limited stint), and Cohen. Jury out on Lemonis, but this is a pretty good year for us
 

CochiseCowbell

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What was happening during that stretch (awesome btw), besides turmoil and change, that produced those results?

Dead Injuns were distracted?

Seriously, I like to know the answer, if it can be answered, to this question as well.
 
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She Mate Me

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St. Johns will beat us 5-3.

Could happen. It's the NCAA Tourney. Most of the teams are pretty good.

I'll be avoiding this board until we beat Penn if it does happen. Nothing like a loss to a team we're generally better than to bring out the screaming children.
 

RopeDawg

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In 10 years:
Make postseason- 10
Host regional- 4
Win regional- 5
Omaha- 3

Our should be to be a top 25 team. Either as a regional host or high 2 seed or making it to a Super.
 
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She Mate Me

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In 10 years:
Make postseason- 10
Host regional- 4
Win regional- 5
Omaha- 3

Our should be to be a top 25 team. Either as a regional host or high 2 seed or making it to a Super.
We have 12 Omaha trips in the last 5+ decades, or about 2 per decade. A lot of those during years when almost all SEC schools gave no shats about baseball and proved it.

Does an expectation of 3 a decade seem reasonable considering that?
 

OG Goat Holder

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We have 12 Omaha trips in the last 5+ decades, or about 2 per decade. A lot of those during years when almost all SEC schools gave no shats about baseball and proved it.

Does an expectation of 3 a decade seem reasonable considering that?
The past does shape the future, even in football. The first teams to be good get the benefit of being ahead of the rest. We have to stop acting like because we cared before others did, that it’s somehow a bad thing. Those years count.

It’s up to us to build on it. We need to be as rabid as possible, honestly.
 

She Mate Me

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The past does shape the future, even in football. The first teams to be good get the benefit of being ahead of the rest. We have to stop acting like because we cared before others did, that it’s somehow a bad thing. Those years count.

It’s up to us to build on it. We need to be as rabid as possible, honestly.

We have given more of a **** about baseball than basically every fan base in the country for 50 years. And it did not produce 3 Omaha trips a decade. But that should be the expectation going forward?

Agree to disagree.
 

OG Goat Holder

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We have given more of a **** about baseball than basically every fan base in the country for 50 years. And it did not produce 3 Omaha trips a decade. But that should be the expectation going forward.

Agree to disagree.
We don’t disagree. We’ve underachieved given our investment. It’s ok to see the reality. But I don’t fault us for caring first. Because we did, we built our program. Could it have been better, absolutely. We made a near fatal decision by hiring Polk back in 2002. Thank God for Foglesong and Byrne, or we’d be forgotten about by now.
 

We Men

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I don’t expect it every year, but my goal for the teams are to win 40 games each year. If you have a 40 win season, post season tourney will take take care of itself.
 

IBleedMaroonDawg

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I would like it if we were as worried about our assistant coaches getting hired bye other programs as we much as we are our players getting lured away for bigger money deals with other teams. we really need to improve our assistant coaching and we have started with our pitching staff... some.
 

thekimmer

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This year was the minimum after two unacceptable years. Next year is a rebuild, so I wouldn't expect big things.
Which is exactly why we should have cut bait on Lemonis after last year because while he saved his job this season he is likely to be out after next year.
 
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HRMSU

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Historically its been 25-30% of the time….and that was before we were put at a disadvantage by NIL. I’ll never figure out where the “should host more often than not” crowd derives their expectations from.

That’s not saying you can’t expect more than what we’ve done historically, but literally double the historical average is pushing it.
I know there are a lot more metrics that go into hosting but for simplicity that's fielding a top 15 team 6 times a decade. I'm not ignoring past history but 6 times a decade doesn't seem unreasonable with our program today but I'm open to being wrong and having my expectations be too high....just not too low.
 

Perd Hapley

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I know there are a lot more metrics that go into hosting but for simplicity that's fielding a top 15 team 6 times a decade. I'm not ignoring past history but 6 times a decade doesn't seem unreasonable with our program today but I'm open to being wrong and having my expectations be too high....just not too low.
I hear you, but the item that most people miss is how much volatility exists in college baseball as a whole. There are no dynasties. No “Alabama football” or “UConn basketball” type programs have ever existed in college baseball, nor will they ever. It takes a tremendous amount of great recruiting and luck just to get 3 top 15-16 regular seasons in a decade.

Think about all the factors that go into it:

1) Programs have to be pot-committed to their best recruits for 4+ years….starting when they are freshmen or sophomores in high school. Have to hope you guess right more than you guess wrong as to whether the kid with huge exit velocity can figure out how to hit a D1 curve ball, or whether the pitcher who throws 89 when he’s 15 will be able to throw 95 when he’s 18. Even when you know by the time they finish senior year that you probably got it wrong (which might just mean they are still really talented, but are just too raw to develop much in the college ranks), more often than not you still gotta bring the kid on for at least a year before processing them….just to keep good relations for future recruits.

2) The draft. Every year is a case of crossing your fingers that at least 2-3 of your studs decide to come to school instead of going pro.

3) TJ surgery. Easily the biggest wild card for everyone. It’s not even a matter of “if”, but rather “who” and “how many” you’re going to lose every single 17ing year. Every year.

4) The portal / NIL. Newest wildcard. Just increases volatility for everyone. Only about 3-4 programs can expect to get a net positive here every single year. We aren’t one of them.

5) Scholarship limits. Obviously big changes are possibly on the horizon here, but until that happens we are all mostly operating under the historical status quo here. At a high level, it means you get punished severely for mis-evaluating a player, or even for correctly evaluating and prioritizing a player that ends up either going pro out of HS, getting hurt, or leaving in the portal.

6) Volatility of the sport of baseball in general. Only sport where a Coastal Carolina or a 3-seed Fresno State can both get hot at the right moment and legitimately win a national title without any prior history or prestige in their favor whatsoever.

All of the above is how MSU / OM can each win a national title and then follow it up with 2 straight years of suck. It’s how UF and LSU can play each other for the national title and then both finish 4 games under .500 in conference play the very next season. It’s how LSU - the most historically prestigious program, with the highest attendance and most rabid fanbase, and most recruiting / NIL advantages on anyone - can themselves still only host 6 times in 10 years.

Simply put, MSU baseball cannot be as consistently good as many of our fans expect us to be, and the main reason for that is that nobody else can, either.
 
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