Rising costs of everything........

[mstateglfr]

Gas should be going down soon. It's the crux of our economy and once that happens the price of commodities will start to drop or at least stabilize.

Since gas is mentioned here, I figure some context for gas prices is once again worth posting.
This chart shows regular unleaded prices by year for the US since 2000. It is not adjusted for inflation either. The reporting is from the Dept of Energy.

- when we chose to go to war under W, gas prices happened to steadily increase.
- when the economy collapsed under W, gas prices happened to drop hard.
- when the economy slowly picked back up under Obama, gas prices happened to steadily increase.
- when the economy was largely back under Obama, gas prices happened to decrease.
- when the economy was doing well under Trump, gas prices happened to increase a bit and then decrease a bit.
- when covid hit under Trump, gas prices happened to drop hard.
- when the economy opened back up under Biden and was hit with global inflation plus a war in Europe, gas prices happened to rise sharply and significantly.
- when the balance settled under Biden, gas prices dropped sharply and then dropped slightly more.


Gas was $1.52/g when Bush took office in 2000.
Gas was $3.91/g when Bush was nearing the end of office(summer '08).
Gas was $3.04/g when Obama was elected in Nov '08.
Gas was $3.82/g when Obama was re-elected in Nov '12.
Gas was $2.35/g when Trump was elected in Nov '16.
Gas was $2.18/g when Biden was elected in Nov '20.
Gas was $3.25/g when Trump was re-elected in Nov '24.

Again, none of these prices are adjusted for inflation.


Gas was more expensive, not even when figuring inflation, 16.5 years ago.
Gas was more expensive, not even when figuring inflation, 12 years ago.
The price of gas in summer '08 equals $5.70/g in today's costs.
The price of gas in fall '12 equals $5.22/g in today's costs.
The price of gas when Trump left office was $2.93/g in today's costs...which is $.20 less than what the average cost actually is.




^ all those numbers to show...
- gas price is largely independent of president and party.
- gas price may seem high, but its been higher in both real terms and inflation terms at multiple points this century.
- adjusted for inflation, gas is barely higher than what it was when Trump left office.

@theoriginalSALTYdog - I am not responding to you with any disagreement or trying to say your post means anything more than you posted. Just tagging to the post since it mentioned gas prices. I think it is beneficial for actual long term perspective when it comes to costs for products we all effectively need, and therefore react emotionally to when they rise.

 

[mstateglfr]

Anyhow, a lot of the problems started in 2009-10 when the banks got a lot of cheap money so things we finance like real estate and cars were already inflating before COVID. Then in March of 2020, with DJT in office, not Biden mind you... We told people to stay home and gave out 6-7 trillion dollars in enhanced unemployment, PPP, stimulus rounds 1&2, mortgage forbearance, student loan forbearance, and 2-3% interest rate mortgages. Biden takes the blame for inflation and he definitely threw kerosene on the fire with $3 trillion of his own handouts... But this was a campfire that Obama/Bush started in 2008-9 and Trump chunked $7 trillion worth of dried pallets on in 2020.

The bold comments cant be said frequently enough.

Inflation post-covid has been a global issue and most every sitting leader of countries with legitimate elections has been voted out over the last 15ish months, with inflation being a top issue every time.
Domestically though...
- what we did to cause the financial crisis in '08 impacts us now.
- what we did to 'fix' the financial crisis in '08 impacts us now.
- Obama and Bush's leadership impacts us now.
- Trump throwing fits and demanding interest rates stay low, so they didnt rise under him, impacts us now.
- Trump's Trump Checks and printing money impacts us now.
- Biden' leadership impacts us now.

We are here because of the decisions and actions of many leaders. Some of those decisions were good and this is just the reality of those good decisions. Some of those decisions were bad and this is the price we pay for those bad decisions. 2 Republicans and 2 Democrats.
- And Congress absolutely doesnt get a pass from all this. Holy hell they all need to stand up and take ownership of it too.

 

[Podgy]

Just before 9-11, we had a budget surplus and the national debt was $5 trillion and declining. Today, less than 25 years later, we have a deficit of $1.8 trillion and a national debt of $36 trillion. What did we get for all of that spending? Can we make some of it back by putting stuff on eBay?

 

[615dawg]

The bold comments cant be said frequently enough.

Inflation post-covid has been a global issue and most every sitting leader of countries with legitimate elections has been voted out over the last 15ish months, with inflation being a top issue every time.
Domestically though...
- what we did to cause the financial crisis in '08 impacts us now.
- what we did to 'fix' the financial crisis in '08 impacts us now.
- Obama and Bush's leadership impacts us now.
- Trump throwing fits and demanding interest rates stay low, so they didnt rise under him, impacts us now.
- Trump's Trump Checks and printing money impacts us now.
- Biden' leadership impacts us now.

We are here because of the decisions and actions of many leaders. Some of those decisions were good and this is just the reality of those good decisions. Some of those decisions were bad and this is the price we pay for those bad decisions. 2 Republicans and 2 Democrats.
- And Congress absolutely doesnt get a pass from all this. Holy hell they all need to stand up and take ownership of it too.

Here are two things I tell people that explain a lot of the why we are here.

1. Half of all the money printed in the history of mankind has been printed since March, 2020.

2. If you had a job where you made $1 million per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and you had that job from the time Jesus was born until today, you would not have made what we borrowed in one month under Biden.

 

[johnson86-1]

Having kids that are at or nearing college aged has opened my eyes to something that has changed dramatically over the past generation (25-30 years).

When I moved into Cresswell Hall in the mid-90s, a selling point for that building was that they had just got central air conditioning. Rice Hall, the women's dorm, still had window units. And don't get me started about McKee and Sessums. But the common timeline for living in Starkville usually went like this.

Dorm for freshman year, maybe sophomore.
Apartment or Greek living

As a sophomore, I moved into a $500/month (total) apartment at Cedar Cove on Louisville. The night my roommate and I moved in, Keffer McGee drowned in the pool. It wasn't anything special, but it was common. Sure there were more expensive options, but not too bad. The most expensive apartments in Starkville were 4BR that were priced per room, but under $1000 total.

Collegiate apartment life has gotten out of control. And dorms are better than they have ever been, but all so expensive. The luxury apartment scene in Starkville with granite countertops, stainless appliances and a resort pool changes your perspective. In a lot of cases, students have better housing arrangements in college than they grew up in.

So when its time to get in the real world, they have an inflated view of themselves and what they deserve. Starter home? **** - we need a home on the lake in Reunion. And that's expensive.

This was a big deal for our age group coming out of school. Not so much recreating the housing they had in college, which still tended to be lower builder grade quality finishing when we were there, but immediately moving into something as nice as their parents house, which their parents probably got after 10 if not 20 years of working. We were one of the few that rented for more than a year after we were in the place we expected to be permanently.

Its part of the brain drain issue that our state faces - grads are leaving for ATL, DFW, BNA where they can make $70k instead of $45k. Never mind that it costs more to live in these cities, its the vibe that matters.

I saw a receipt that was trending yesterday on X. Someone ordered one burrito, a side of guac and chips and a Mexican Coke from Chipotle and after delivery and tip, it was $68. Thats a hell of a convenience markup. Add in daily coffee, a $15 lunch at Subway and life is expensive in a hurry. Kids make it more expensive. My niece is pregnant and has a $1500 stroller on her registry and is discussing giving birth in something called a luxury baby suite. She's a school teacher.

Society's expectations of a normal middle class life have gotten out of hand. We want it because we think we deserve it. Now get off my lawn.

People are completely bipolar about the value of their time.

On the one hand, you'll see people making the equivalent of $25 per hour before tax pay somebody to deliver food when they are not drunk or sick. They're almost certainly paying more for that in after tax dollars for the convenience of delivery. Even if you could work as many hours as you want and get paid for it (most people can't), it still wouldn't make sense to pay somebody to deliver that to you absent extenuating circumstances.

On the flip side, people will sign up to add 30 minutes one way to their commute for an extra $5k, which values their time at something around $20 per hour pre-tax even if you ignore the extra costs of the longer commute.

 

[SlevinKelevra]

- Football tickets, hell ALL tickets, not to mention parking, concessions, etc.;
- Housing costs, with no end in sight - they even artificially raise interest rates and costs STILL stay high; LACK OF COMPETITION
- Insurance - through the roof with no end in sight there either, fires/disasters; LACK OF COMPETITION
- Groceries, no explanation needed;
- Restaurants - we all know they ain't bringing prices down once they go up; SIMPLE TO NOT GO
- Even Netflix and streaming services.; PRICES SEEM PRETTY REASONABLE TO ME BUT BARRIERS TO ENTRY AND CREATING POTENTIAL FOR COMPETITION WOULD HELP
- Oh yeah....and vehicles....holeeee shlt;

What are middle class folks to do? Seems like gas is the only thing that fluctuates but even still, it trends up. I sometimes wonder how folks like me are going to make it, especially our kids. If you don't get into the real estate market immediately, basically avoid all entertainment that involves sports, food and drink.......how do you get ahead? It's gotten ridiculous.

Focus on the things you need versus the things you want. And 80% or more of America is guilty of this.

Is it going to be like Europe soon, when everybody has to live with parents due to housing? This cycle just continues and continues.

 

[mstateglfr]

Collegiate apartment life has gotten out of control. And dorms are better than they have ever been, but all so expensive. The luxury apartment scene in Starkville with granite countertops, stainless appliances and a resort pool changes your perspective. In a lot of cases, students have better housing arrangements in college than they grew up in.

So damn true.
Having gone on 8 college visits so far, some of the amenities are absurd. Even when dorms are reasonable(nicer than mine in Cresswell but not luxury), the schools focus on these rarely used luxury signaling things like a lazy river in the Rec Center or LED visualization wall in a common area of the dorm.
Gotta keep up with the Joneses, but when you see some of the decisions that are made when trying to keep up...you question the value.

I will admit that I am jealous of how good a lot of the dining hall food is, compared to MSU. God love the omelet lady, but damn there is some incredible quality and variety that is being served up at larger college dining halls right now.

 

[johnson86-1]

Here are two things I tell people that explain a lot of the why we are here.

1. Half of all the money printed in the history of mankind has been printed since March, 2020.

2. If you had a job where you made $1 million per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and you had that job from the time Jesus was born until today, you would not have made what we borrowed in one month under Biden.

We are literally incapable of grasping the numbers that are thrown around by the federal government. Even if we could magically do a reset on our currency where one cent had the value that $1 does now, they numbers would still be too big for us to grasp conceptually.

 

[stateu1]

God love the omelet lady,

Best comment you have ever made here.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Just wait until the new tariffs kick in - you will be overjoyed then.

Don't worry, we are going to boot all the workers that harvest and build for us, so that should help. Everybody knows that when you have low birth rate and labor shortages, you should take measures to ensure that the supply chain for staples is disrupted.

 

[PBRME]

The current state of everything sucks. Started my trucking company in 2011. From 2011 until 2020 things were going great. I wasn’t getting rich, but money wasn’t a concern. 5 years later line haul rates are worse than they were pre-COVID, and the cost of insurance has increased 240%.

I’m starting a 2nd full time job tonight to pay home expenses. This way I can keep all the money my company makes in the company, and try to dig myself out of the hole I’ve put my self in since 2022. I was just trying to hold out until this **** show industry turns around. Held out as long as I can.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Don't worry, we are going to boot all the workers that harvest and build for us, so that should help. Everybody knows that when you have low birth rate and labor shortages, you should take measures to ensure that the supply chain for staples is disrupted.

Bout to boot a bunch of federal workers too, and many others will quit. You thought things moved slow before, just wait.

 

[dudehead]

Just before 9-11, we had a budget surplus and the national debt was $5 trillion and declining. Today, less than 25 years later, we have a deficit of $1.8 trillion and a national debt of $36 trillion. What did we get for all of that spending? Can we make some of it back by putting stuff on eBay?

Come on, there's a whole bunch of boomer **** in millions of storage units far and wide in the land of the free and home of the brave.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Bout to boot a bunch of federal workers too, and many others will quit. You thought things moved slow before, just wait.

And they get tossed into the general work pool. More competition for the jobs that are out there.

 

[WilCoDawg]

Just wait until the new tariffs kick in - you will be overjoyed then.

So someone tell me where I’m not understanding this common liberal complaint:

Tariffs are going to make imported goods more expensive. Thus, imported goods may be closer in price to domestic goods. General public then just decides to focus on domestic goods. This in turn keeps money in the US and hopefully creates more jobs here in the US. Will we as consumers end up paying more for a product? Yes, but it will benefit the entire nation more and possibly create other benefits for us whether directly or indirectly.

We also hurt our enemy (China) by reducing how much money we give them for cheap goods (especially the knock-offs they make that infringe on patents they ignore).

Where am I wrong?

 

[PapaDawg]

Bottled water is my economic barometer. When convenience stores can no longer get more for bottle water than some beers I'll know things are coming around.**

Bottled water is more expensive than gasoline. Alot of state and federal taxes go into the costs of a gallon of gas, but it still cost a lot more to produce a gallon of gas than filter a bottle of water.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

And they get tossed into the general work pool. More competition for the jobs that are out there.

Who's gonna hire a government worker?

 

[615dawg]

Bottled water is more expensive than gasoline. Alot of state and federal taxes go into the costs of a gallon of gas, but it still cost a lot more to produce a gallon of gas than filter a bottle of water.

I'm 45 and I can remember when bottled water just didn't really exist en masse.

People laugh but its part of the problem the OP is trying to address. Yes, life gotten more expensive, but the average person expects more out of life.

 

[dorndawg]

The current state of everything sucks. Started my trucking company in 2011. From 2011 until 2020 things were going great. I wasn’t getting rich, but money wasn’t a concern. 5 years later line haul rates are worse than they were pre-COVID, and the cost of insurance has increased 240%.

I’m starting a 2nd full time job tonight to pay home expenses. This way I can keep all the money my company makes in the company, and try to dig myself out of the hole I’ve put my self in since 2022. I was just trying to hold out until this **** show industry turns around. Held out as long as I can.

You've got my sympathy man - there's ample challenges in trucking even when the rates aren't what they are now.

 

[Herbert Nenninger]

In med school, me and two other guys split a two bedroom apartment. We could walk to campus. We had a box tv with rabbit ears. Drove modest used vehicles. We spent the night at chick fil a openings to get free meal coupons (Hattiesburg, Jonesboro, and villa rica GA), and we ate off of those and 2-for-1 meal coupons at local restaurants. Sure as heck didn’t buy soda or bottled water. U do what u gotta do.

 

[mstateglfr]

Here are two things I tell people that explain a lot of the why we are here.

1. Half of all the money printed in the history of mankind has been printed since March, 2020.

2. If you had a job where you made $1 million per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and you had that job from the time Jesus was born until today, you would not have made what we borrowed in one month under Biden.

#1 is interesting.

#2 is...really not interesting, though since you tie it to a date in history that is of historical and cultural significance, I understand it should be interesting.
I genuinely cant discern things like what is and isnt borrowed under a President, how much debt is taken on in reality vs projections, what debt is smart to take on vs dumb to take on, etc. There is simply too much number playing and misrepresentation due to agenda for me to want to take the time and sift thru countless reports just to determine what the actual truth is.

Also, why is borrowing tied to Biden(or Trump)? Congress uses the Taxing and Spending Clause along with the Borrowing Clause to...tax, spend, and borrow.

Anyways, you say Biden borrowed more than $738,860,000,000 ($738.76 billion) per month. Does that mean he borrowed $354trillion dollars during his presidency? Help me out with math because I can only correctly solve about 19.83% of math problems I am asked to solve.

This says Biden has been responsible for almost half the 10 year debt that Trump has been responsible for, and has approved less gross new borrowing than Trump(though there was still 6mo left of his term) https://www.crfb.org/papers/trump-and-biden-national-debt
Do these numbers disprove anything? Do they support anything? I dont know.

FACT CHECK ALERT: Debunking CRFB’s Analysis of Trump and Biden Impacts on the National Debt | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

This link apparently debunks the prior link. Is it biased? Is it neutral? I dont know.

Anyways, #2 really doesnt mean much to me since I dont know how much other presidents borrowed, I dont know if the number is legit or skewed, and I dont know why Congress gets a pass since Congress taxes, spends, and borrows.

 

[615dawg]

#2 is...really not interesting, though since you tie it to a date in history that is of historical and cultural significance, I understand it should be interesting.
I genuinely cant discern things like what is and isnt borrowed under a President, how much debt is taken on in reality vs projections, what debt is smart to take on vs dumb to take on, etc. There is simply too much number playing and misrepresentation due to agenda for me to want to take the time and sift thru countless reports just to determine what the actual truth is.

Also, why is borrowing tied to Biden(or Trump)? Congress uses the Taxing and Spending Clause along with the Borrowing Clause to...tax, spend, and borrow.

Anyways, you say Biden borrowed more than $738,860,000,000 ($738.76 billion) per month. Does that mean he borrowed $354trillion dollars during his presidency? Help me out with math because I can only correctly solve about 19.83% of math problems I am asked to solve.

I didn't say per, I said a.

There was a month in which we borrowed right at a trillion.

 

[patdog]

The current state of everything sucks. Started my trucking company in 2011. From 2011 until 2020 things were going great. I wasn’t getting rich, but money wasn’t a concern. 5 years later line haul rates are worse than they were pre-COVID, and the cost of insurance has increased 240%.

I’m starting a 2nd full time job tonight to pay home expenses. This way I can keep all the money my company makes in the company, and try to dig myself out of the hole I’ve put my self in since 2022. I was just trying to hold out until this **** show industry turns around. Held out as long as I can.

Man, that sucks. It's a tough business. Not just the insurance costs, but the costs of the trucks has skyrocketed in the last 5 years.

 

[mstateglfr]

So someone tell me where I’m not understanding this common liberal complaint:

Tariffs are going to make imported goods more expensive. Thus, imported goods may be closer in price to domestic goods. General public then just decides to focus on domestic goods. This in turn keeps money in the US and hopefully creates more jobs here in the US. Will we as consumers end up paying more for a product? Yes

First off, it isnt a liberal complaint. Its an observation by basically every economist worth a damn that paying more for goods and services than otherwise necessary isnt a great policy.

Secondly, who gets that tariff money? Who holds onto it and what is done with it? There is a common claim that the originating company/country is burdened by the tariffs, but in reality it is the end country's people who are burdened with the increased cost of goods. So who gets that money and what is done with it? The government gets it- I will answer that for you. Are you really arguing for an increase in government taxes and government management of tax money?

Third, your answer is in your post. The complaint is that consumers will pay more for goods. In a thread that complains about the rising costs of everything, you chime in with 'whats so bad about paying even more for everything?', and I think thats pretty dang funny.

Fourth, what actually happens isnt that the general public focuses on buying domestic goods and money is kept in the US and away from 'our enemy'. That is some seriously simplistic thinking. What does happen is 4-fold.
- other countries slap tariffs on US products, especially commodities which are easily sourced elsewhere, which reduces US exports. To be clear, this retaliatory process also financially hurts those country's citizens.
- US consumers continue buying from overseas and pay the tariffs because manufacturing of those products doesnt even exist domestically so its not like the US can just produce those things.
- Companies shift production to countries which arent subject to the tariffs and any increased cost due to higher labor or transport is still passed down to the US consumer, though it might be less of an increase than the tariff would be.
- Companies move production to the US or established US production increases.

^ These are in descending order of what happens. The top bullet is super common, the second bullet is super common, the third bullet is less common, and the last bullet(what you suggest will happen for apparently all products) is very rare.

 

[mstateglfr]

I didn't say per, I said a.

There was a month in which we borrowed right at a trillion.

Yeah, see I thought about that as a possible way to interpret your comment and dismissed it because I figured you wouldnt ever post something so totally meaningless. I mean come on- why would that ever be something worth posting about? Who even calculated that stat? Who cares if there was a single month when a lot of borrowing occurred? Thats some seriously skewed fun with numbers level commentary.

For my job, I spend probably 60% of my budget in July. Should July be the month where financial projections and conclusions are made?

 

[dorndawg]

Fourth, what actually happens isnt that the general public focuses on buying domestic goods and money is kept in the US and away from 'our enemy'. That is some seriously simplistic thinking. What does happen is 4-fold.
- other countries slap tariffs on US products, especially commodities which are easily sourced elsewhere, which reduces US exports. To be clear, this retaliatory process also financially hurts those country's citizens.
- US consumers continue buying from overseas and pay the tariffs because manufacturing of those products doesnt even exist domestically so its not like the US can just produce those things.
- Companies shift production to countries which arent subject to the tariffs and any increased cost due to higher labor or transport is still passed down to the US consumer, though it might be less of an increase than the tariff would be.
- Companies move production to the US or established US production increases.

^ These are in descending order of what happens. The top bullet is super common, the second bullet is super common, the third bullet is less common, and the last bullet(what you suggest will happen for apparently all products) is very rare.

If the tariffs are substantial enough, there's a 5th dimension: gray/black markets and/or outright piracy. Which also generally will not benefit the American taxpayer.

 

[mstateglfr]

The current state of everything sucks. Started my trucking company in 2011. From 2011 until 2020 things were going great. I wasn’t getting rich, but money wasn’t a concern. 5 years later line haul rates are worse than they were pre-COVID, and the cost of insurance has increased 240%.

I’m starting a 2nd full time job tonight to pay home expenses. This way I can keep all the money my company makes in the company, and try to dig myself out of the hole I’ve put my self in since 2022. I was just trying to hold out until this **** show industry turns around. Held out as long as I can.

I got out of Logistics 3 years ago and havent looked back. 18 years of account management on the brokerage/non-asset side was too long and I should have left sooner.
The domestic OTR, LTL, and IM markets are completely unpredictable and almost never in balance. It was a constant tugofwar where you were either getting pulled into the mud or making the other side cry out in pain while they were in the mud. And it would often change back and forth by the quarter.

Owning a trucking company is hard work and impressive. Dealing with insurance, HR, exhausted or emotional drivers, shippers and receivers that have a DGAF attitude, etc- all that is way more than I could manage.

 

[PBRME]

I got out of Logistics 3 years ago and havent looked back. 18 years of account management on the brokerage/non-asset side was too long and I should have left sooner.
The domestic OTR, LTL, and IM markets are completely unpredictable and almost never in balance. It was a constant tugofwar where you were either getting pulled into the mud or making the other side cry out in pain while they were in the mud. And it would often change back and forth by the quarter.

Owning a trucking company is hard work and impressive. Dealing with insurance, HR, exhausted or emotional drivers, shippers and receivers that have a DGAF attitude, etc- all that is way more than I could manage.

What I posted is my exit strategy. If I could walk away now I would.

 

[ronpolk]

So someone tell me where I’m not understanding this common liberal complaint:

Tariffs are going to make imported goods more expensive. Thus, imported goods may be closer in price to domestic goods. General public then just decides to focus on domestic goods. This in turn keeps money in the US and hopefully creates more jobs here in the US. Will we as consumers end up paying more for a product? Yes, but it will benefit the entire nation more and possibly create other benefits for us whether directly or indirectly.

We also hurt our enemy (China) by reducing how much money we give them for cheap goods (especially the knock-offs they make that infringe on patents they ignore).

Where am I wrong?

This assumes everything we import is already made here, which is not the case at all. If you need a product and it’s not made in the US then you are just going to pay the tariff because the company is going to pass it on. If a product is already made here and their foreign competition pulls out of the market because consumers won’t pay the increased price due to the tariff, what do you think the US manufacturer is going to do - supply will be down and demand for their product will be up? Companies aren’t going to make huge capital improvements, like building factories in America, without ultimately raising their price anyway.

I don’t really know what the tariff plan is but I hope it’s targeted to products that make sense to build here. I don’t really think it does a lot of good to start manufacturing t shirts here in the US just so we can say 5000 people got a $30k/year salary. Now we do need to make countries play by the rules. I’ve had several customers over the years have bogus reasons places like China stopped importing their products. China ripping off trademarks/patents also needs to stop too.

 

[dudehead]

So someone tell me where I’m not understanding this common liberal complaint:

Tariffs are going to make imported goods more expensive. Thus, imported goods may be closer in price to domestic goods. General public then just decides to focus on domestic goods. This in turn keeps money in the US and hopefully creates more jobs here in the US. Will we as consumers end up paying more for a product? Yes, but it will benefit the entire nation more and possibly create other benefits for us whether directly or indirectly.

We also hurt our enemy (China) by reducing how much money we give them for cheap goods (especially the knock-offs they make that infringe on patents they ignore).

Where am I wrong?

I don't disagree with you about targeted tariffs to level the playing field for domestic producers in specific industries where our US producers are disadvantaged by laws that make domestic production more expensive. I am talking about broad based tariffs on everything imported from China, or Mexico, particularly, items where there is limited US production now. Consider pharmaceuticals, aren't most medicines produced in China now? What happens if a 20% tariff is tacked on meds from China - that will directly hit the pocket book of your average American, and most Americans have to take their meds.

 

[johnson86-1]

First off, it isnt a liberal complaint. Its an observation by basically every economist worth a damn that paying more for goods and services than otherwise necessary isnt a great policy.

Secondly, who gets that tariff money? Who holds onto it and what is done with it? There is a common claim that the originating company/country is burdened by the tariffs, but in reality it is the end country's people who are burdened with the increased cost of goods. So who gets that money and what is done with it? The government gets it- I will answer that for you. Are you really arguing for an increase in government taxes and government management of tax money?

Third, your answer is in your post. The complaint is that consumers will pay more for goods. In a thread that complains about the rising costs of everything, you chime in with 'whats so bad about paying even more for everything?', and I think thats pretty dang funny.

Fourth, what actually happens isnt that the general public focuses on buying domestic goods and money is kept in the US and away from 'our enemy'. That is some seriously simplistic thinking. What does happen is 4-fold.
- other countries slap tariffs on US products, especially commodities which are easily sourced elsewhere, which reduces US exports. To be clear, this retaliatory process also financially hurts those country's citizens.
- US consumers continue buying from overseas and pay the tariffs because manufacturing of those products doesnt even exist domestically so its not like the US can just produce those things.
- Companies shift production to countries which arent subject to the tariffs and any increased cost due to higher labor or transport is still passed down to the US consumer, though it might be less of an increase than the tariff would be.
- Companies move production to the US or established US production increases.

^ These are in descending order of what happens. The top bullet is super common, the second bullet is super common, the third bullet is less common, and the last bullet(what you suggest will happen for apparently all products) is very rare.

It's also pretty dang funny to see people on the left point out that consumers are likely to bear the burden of tariffs, even though they aren't directly cutting the check, which is logic that people on the left generally fail to apply to 100% of other taxes.

Another issue with tariffs that is sort of included/related to your points but not specifically mentioned is that supply chains are complex, and basically everything of substance you use has a multi-national supply chain, so even things you think of as "domestic" will be hit by tariffs.

I generally don't have a problem with tariffs. Taxes are a necessary evil, and tariffs aren't obviously worse to me than other types of taxes other than generally applied consumption taxes, which we don't do much of at the federal level outside of gasoline/diesel I don't think. The only real concern I have with tariffs is that they tend to invite tariffs from other countries, and generally discouraging international trade is not going to be beneficial to US residents anymore than it would be beneficial for residents of a state for that state to try to discourage interstate trade.

Trump seems to be bluffing a little hard with tariffs to me, and throwing out tariffs that I would hope we wouldn't actually implement, but he just doesn't seem to think throwing out outlandish statements hurts him.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

- Football tickets, hell ALL tickets, not to mention parking, concessions, etc.;
- Housing costs, with no end in sight - they even artificially raise interest rates and costs STILL stay high;
- Insurance - through the roof with no end in sight there either, fires/disasters;
- Groceries, no explanation needed;
- Restaurants - we all know they ain't bringing prices down once they go up;
- Even Netflix and streaming services.
- Oh yeah....and vehicles....holeeee shlt.

What are middle class folks to do? Seems like gas is the only thing that fluctuates but even still, it trends up. I sometimes wonder how folks like me are going to make it, especially our kids. If you don't get into the real estate market immediately, basically avoid all entertainment that involves sports, food and drink.......how do you get ahead? It's gotten ridiculous.

Is it going to be like Europe soon, when everybody has to live with parents due to housing? This cycle just continues and continues.

That’s what happens when the government prints money

 

[8dog]

So someone tell me where I’m not understanding this common liberal complaint:

Tariffs are going to make imported goods more expensive. Thus, imported goods may be closer in price to domestic goods. General public then just decides to focus on domestic goods. This in turn keeps money in the US and hopefully creates more jobs here in the US. Will we as consumers end up paying more for a product? Yes, but it will benefit the entire nation more and possibly create other benefits for us whether directly or indirectly.

We also hurt our enemy (China) by reducing how much money we give them for cheap goods (especially the knock-offs they make that infringe on patents they ignore).

Where am I wrong?

Here are some thoughts:
1. Things are still often less expensive if imported even with tariffs
2. American companies often use imports to make their products which makes the American price rise.
3. But most of all Companies usually can’t just up and build a facility even if we wanted to start buying it in America. It takes time , CapEx and many times they can’t find workers.

N

 

[theoriginalSALTYdog]

Nope.

You’re forgetting about summer gas when it’ll go up again.

That's just a typical seasonal supply and demand issue.

 

[mstateglfr]

Trump seems to be bluffing a little hard with tariffs to me, and throwing out tariffs that I would hope we wouldn't actually implement, but he just doesn't seem to think throwing out outlandish statements hurts him.

Yep. It largely doesnt seem to matter what he claims, or what he says, or what he calls people, who he associates with, who he threatens, or how few of his promises he even tries to implement.

He can implement destructive policy(and based on actual history, they are just that) and the results wont hurt him.
He can fail to implement destructive policy and claim that it was just a bluff to get whatever less extreme thing is actually happening and he will be both praised and the lack of fulfilling a promise wont hurt him.

Its a win win for sure.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Tariffs are literally the worst. It does no good to put tariffs on goods that we don’t make here in the first place. Protecting an industry you have here is one thing but he wants to do across the board tariffs on everything and he wants to do it with China, Mexico, and Canada. All it does is spark the other countries to protect themselves and put tariffs on the US exports in retaliation and all it does in the end is make everything more expensive for everyone else and also lose market share with other countries that we compete with in the export market. It’s an absolute disaster.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

I blame women and weak *** men giving in to women. Men can live like bums to have a little spending money, women can't do it. Then the skinny jeans man who drives a 4WD around the mall but never off road gets P-whipped into keeping up with the Jones. Damn guys, be men! Live like a hermit and forget about the poon priorities. Put her *** in the kitchen and take away her cards! And as a former "coach" stop chasing after sports glory through your kids and focus on their education and/or putting them in a positive position to handle life because it won't get easier.

 

[The Peeper]

Yeah, we use it every once in awhile on the weekend when I’ve already gotten into the bourbon, but it sure is a product that almost everyone seems to hate.

Restaurants don’t like it because it means that people aren’t coming in and buying drinks or tipping waiters. Customers don’t like it because your $40 tab turns into nearly $60 after all the fees. Then drivers get pissed when customers don’t tip enough due to already paying said fees and inflated menu prices.

I don't use any delivery because by the time it gets to you in a styrofoam box, its usually cooled off and the inside is sweaty. I don't know about yall but if I got served food from that same restaurant that came to my table like that I would send it back and I'm not paying a premium price for a product that I wouldn't eat in the restaurant itself.

Edited: to say and I don't order myself and pick it up for the same reason. And don't get me started on the soap box of when I'm driving around a restaurant wanting to go in and eat, and the only parking places are "Reserved For Take Out Customers", customers that may or may not show up but have a reserved place if they do. I will park in one of those in a heartbeat if its the only one close to the restaurant I'm about to go in and have a meal at.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I love door dash etc existing when I shouldn't be driving or I'm at home sick, but otherwise don't get how it stays in business. When it first came out a few years ago it seemed like it maybe cost 30% more than normal, but now it's more like double.

You have to know your area, and know how to play the promo code / coupon game. Its also a trade off on time and gas money. If a restaurant is 15 minutes away, and a $60 pick-up order turns into $70 with DoorDash, then that’s a no brainer to use the service….unless you’re just anxious to get out of the house, or already out. I’d use $3.00-$3.50 in gas to get there and back. So, when you’re at home and its really late, or maybe its just you and you have all your kids that you don’t want to load up, paying $6.50-$7.00 for the food to get to you is money well spent in a lot of cases.

Also, you have to embrace pragmatic tipping, which means rejecting the guilt-inducing tip suggestions. DoorDash “suggests” a $6 tip for $35 of food that arrives in one bag, but then suggests a $12 tip for $70 of food that also shows up in just one bag? 17 that. The driver isn’t doing any more work. Why does he get double the money for one over the other? He didn’t cook the shít. And even if its 2 bags, I’m paying double for him to use both the arms on his body, but not any more of his time? It’s nonsense.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

That's just a typical seasonal supply and demand issue.

Partly.

But summer gas also costs more to produce than winter gas.