Rising costs of everything........

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
3,183
4,610
113
How is this any different than a debit or ATM card?
bitcoin seed phrasedebit or ATM card
ownership and custodyWhen you hold a private key, you are the sole owner of your funds. No bank, government, or third party can freeze, block, or confiscate your bitcoin.Your funds are held in a bank account, and the bank has control over that account. Your access can be restricted, accounts can be frozen, or transactions can be denied for various reasons (e.g., geopolitical sanctions, bank policies, or errors).
permissionless accessOperates on a decentralized network, meaning you don’t need permission to access or transfer your funds. If you have your seed phrase, you can restore and use your bitcoin anytime, anywhere, without relying on a bank or institution.Relies on centralized banking infrastructure, which requires permission to use. If the bank’s systems are down, your card is lost, or your account is flagged, you lose access.
censorship resistanceTransactions cannot be censored or blocked. Once you initiate a transaction and it’s included in the blockchain, no one can reverse or stop it.Transactions can be reversed, blocked, or declined, depending on the bank or payment network’s rules.
borderless and unrestrictedYou can cross any political boundary with just your seed phrase and restore your bitcoin anywhere, without customs declarations, foreign exchange limitations, or physical assets.Tied to a specific bank and country, and their use is often subject to cross-border transaction fees, currency exchange rules, or even regional blocks depending on sanctions or policies.
self-sovereignty and securityGives you self-sovereignty over your wealth. The security of your funds depends on how well you protect your private key or seed phrase. There’s no middleman.Relies on the security of the banking system. If the bank is hacked, your funds could be at risk. If you lose your card or the bank fails, accessing your funds could become a problem.

Bitcoin’s primary value lies in its decentralized, permissionless, and censorship-resistant nature, giving you full control over your wealth without needing to trust a third party. Debit cards, while convenient, operate within the constraints of traditional financial systems that depend on intermediaries and can impose restrictions.
 

ronpolk

Well-known member
May 6, 2009
8,361
3,060
113
bitcoin seed phrasedebit or ATM card
ownership and custodyWhen you hold a private key, you are the sole owner of your funds. No bank, government, or third party can freeze, block, or confiscate your bitcoin.Your funds are held in a bank account, and the bank has control over that account. Your access can be restricted, accounts can be frozen, or transactions can be denied for various reasons (e.g., geopolitical sanctions, bank policies, or errors).
permissionless accessOperates on a decentralized network, meaning you don’t need permission to access or transfer your funds. If you have your seed phrase, you can restore and use your bitcoin anytime, anywhere, without relying on a bank or institution.Relies on centralized banking infrastructure, which requires permission to use. If the bank’s systems are down, your card is lost, or your account is flagged, you lose access.
censorship resistanceTransactions cannot be censored or blocked. Once you initiate a transaction and it’s included in the blockchain, no one can reverse or stop it.Transactions can be reversed, blocked, or declined, depending on the bank or payment network’s rules.
borderless and unrestrictedYou can cross any political boundary with just your seed phrase and restore your bitcoin anywhere, without customs declarations, foreign exchange limitations, or physical assets.Tied to a specific bank and country, and their use is often subject to cross-border transaction fees, currency exchange rules, or even regional blocks depending on sanctions or policies.
self-sovereignty and securityGives you self-sovereignty over your wealth. The security of your funds depends on how well you protect your private key or seed phrase. There’s no middleman.Relies on the security of the banking system. If the bank is hacked, your funds could be at risk. If you lose your card or the bank fails, accessing your funds could become a problem.

Bitcoin’s primary value lies in its decentralized, permissionless, and censorship-resistant nature, giving you full control over your wealth without needing to trust a third party. Debit cards, while convenient, operate within the constraints of traditional financial systems that depend on intermediaries and can impose restrictions.
Are there stores/merchants that accept bitcoin?
 

Anon1717806835

Well-known member
Jun 7, 2024
336
864
93
bitcoin seed phrasedebit or ATM card
ownership and custodyWhen you hold a private key, you are the sole owner of your funds. No bank, government, or third party can freeze, block, or confiscate your bitcoin.Your funds are held in a bank account, and the bank has control over that account. Your access can be restricted, accounts can be frozen, or transactions can be denied for various reasons (e.g., geopolitical sanctions, bank policies, or errors).
permissionless accessOperates on a decentralized network, meaning you don’t need permission to access or transfer your funds. If you have your seed phrase, you can restore and use your bitcoin anytime, anywhere, without relying on a bank or institution.Relies on centralized banking infrastructure, which requires permission to use. If the bank’s systems are down, your card is lost, or your account is flagged, you lose access.
censorship resistanceTransactions cannot be censored or blocked. Once you initiate a transaction and it’s included in the blockchain, no one can reverse or stop it.Transactions can be reversed, blocked, or declined, depending on the bank or payment network’s rules.
borderless and unrestrictedYou can cross any political boundary with just your seed phrase and restore your bitcoin anywhere, without customs declarations, foreign exchange limitations, or physical assets.Tied to a specific bank and country, and their use is often subject to cross-border transaction fees, currency exchange rules, or even regional blocks depending on sanctions or policies.
self-sovereignty and securityGives you self-sovereignty over your wealth. The security of your funds depends on how well you protect your private key or seed phrase. There’s no middleman.Relies on the security of the banking system. If the bank is hacked, your funds could be at risk. If you lose your card or the bank fails, accessing your funds could become a problem.

Bitcoin’s primary value lies in its decentralized, permissionless, and censorship-resistant nature, giving you full control over your wealth without needing to trust a third party. Debit cards, while convenient, operate within the constraints of traditional financial systems that depend on intermediaries and can impose restrictions.
This is complete and utter nonsense. All of your "cons" about a debit or ATM card are a problem if you are a terrorist, in the mob, or in some doomsday scenario.

Ownership & Custody
I have had a checking account for almost 25 years and the only time I have ever been "restricted" from withdrawing money because of bank polices were instances where I simply had insufficient funds.

You are worried about your bank account being frozen by geopolitical sanctions? Who are you, Vladimir Putin?

Permissionless Access
Again, you are worried about your bank account being flagged? Are you an ISIS or Al Qaeda operative?

Censorship Resistance
The network and banking rules that you are talking about are in place for the specific purpose of keeping honest folks from getting ****** over by dishonest people.

Borderless and Unrestricted
Ok, there are fees - but in my mind they are a small price to pay for the piece of mind of using a regulated and traceable system of transfer. Tied to a specific country might be a problem if you are from Russia or North Korea. Why would an American citizen who banks with a Bank that is part of the regulated American banking system be worried about that?

Self-Sovereignty & Security
If i lose my card, I can have another one in a matter of days. Do you know how rare it is for a person to lose money on uninsured deposits due to bank failure?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mstateglfr

dudehead

Active member
Jul 9, 2006
1,376
435
83
I think you have old info. He said from the podium just this week that he believes God literally saved him from the assassin's bullet. He's been claiming Christian beliefs out loud for a while now.

I have faith that people can have an awakening (especially after some life-altering event slaps them in the face), find God at some point along their journey on earth, and then begin to change their beliefs and actions. Lord knows I don't act like it all the time (imperfect human here ✋), but it happened to me, actually.

It's up to you whether (a) you believe that can happen, and (b) you believe it truly happened to Trump. I'm just raising the point, he's claiming to be a Christian now.
I think you have old info. He said from the podium just this week that he believes God literally saved him from the assassin's bullet. He's been claiming Christian beliefs out loud for a while now.

I have faith that people can have an awakening (especially after some life-altering event slaps them in the face), find God at some point along their journey on earth, and then begin to change their beliefs and actions. Lord knows I don't act like it all the time (imperfect human here ✋), but it happened to me, actually.

It's up to you whether (a) you believe that can happen, and (b) you believe it truly happened to Trump. I'm just raising the point, he's claiming to be a Christian now.
I couldn’t agree with you more because I have experienced a spiritual awakening by taking the 12 steps in my recovery from alcoholism. That is really the only solution the 12 step communities offer to the alcoholic, addict, etc.

I hope POTUS has experienced an awakening but his word and actions don’t seem to reflect the fruit of the spirit to me. Plus, he just seems to be angry most of the time with that scowl on his face. In any event, it really doesn’t matter what I think, it’s important what he thinks and does.

By the way, here’s the clip I saw. It seems real and recent but I really have no idea given how “they” can alter things so well today.

 

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
3,183
4,610
113
This is complete and utter nonsense. All of your "cons" about a debit or ATM card a problem if you are a terrorist, in the mob, or in some doomsday scenario.

Ownership & Custody
I have had a checking account for almost 25 years and the only time I have ever been "restricted" from withdrawing money because of bank polices were instances where I simply had insufficient funds.

You are worried about your bank account being frozen by geopolitical sanctions? Who are you, Vladimir Putin?

Permissionless Access
Again, you are worried about your bank account being flagged? Are you an ISIS or Al Qaeda operative?

Censorship Resistance
The network and banking rules that you are talking about are in place for the specific purpose of keeping honest folks from getting ****** over by dishonest people.

Borderless and Unrestricted
Ok, there are fees - but in my mind they are a small price to pay for the piece of mind of using a regulated and traceable system of transfer. Tied to a specific country might be a problem if you are from Russia or North Korea. Why would an American citizen who banks with a Bank that is part of the regulated American banking system be worried about that?

Self-Sovereignty & Security
If i lose my card, I can have another one in a matter of days. Do you know how rare it is for a person to lose money on uninsured deposits due to bank failure?
Ownership & Custody

You’ve had a stable experience with your bank, which is great. However, your experience doesn’t negate the principle that with traditional banking, you don’t have full ownership of your funds. Banks are custodians of your money, and in extreme cases, they have the legal authority to freeze accounts (e.g., in cases of disputes, errors, or government orders).

Consider situations like:
  • Bank bail-ins: In certain jurisdictions (e.g., Cyprus in 2013), depositors had their funds partially seized during financial crises.
  • Economic instability: In countries like Venezuela or Lebanon, everyday citizens saw their savings evaporate or accounts frozen due to hyperinflation or government mismanagement.
While these events may seem distant to someone in a stable system like the U.S., bitcoin’s custody model ensures that your money is truly yours in any scenario.

Permissionless Access

You asked, “Who are you, Vladimir Putin or an ISIS operative?” The point isn’t about supporting illicit activities. It’s about recognizing the global significance of financial access. Not everyone enjoys the same privileges as those in stable systems like the U.S.

For example:
  • People in sanctioned countries or under authoritarian regimes may find themselves cut off from financial systems through no fault of their own.
  • Even in democratic countries, the Canadian truckers’ protests provide a cautionary tale. Protestors—regardless of whether you agree with their cause—were labeled as threats, and their bank accounts were frozen to prevent them from accessing their own money. This demonstrates how quickly financial tools can be weaponized.
The lesson here is that anyone can be labeled a “terrorist” or “threat” to justify restricting access to the banking system, even for peaceful protests or dissent. Bitcoin’s permissionless nature ensures that access to your wealth isn’t contingent on someone else’s judgment or approval.

Censorship Resistance

You mentioned banking rules as a safeguard against dishonest people, which is valid in many cases. However, these rules also have unintended consequences, such as:
  • De-platforming without recourse: Payment systems like PayPal or banking institutions sometimes freeze accounts based on algorithmic decisions or false flags. Even if reversed, these errors can cause significant disruptions.
  • Charity and activism: In some cases, banks have blocked funds intended for legitimate causes (e.g., aid to conflict zones) because they fall into gray areas of compliance.
Bitcoin is neutral and transparent—it doesn’t judge the morality of transactions. While that can be exploited by bad actors, it also protects legitimate users from censorship and unjust freezes. Again, the Canadian truckers’ example underscores the risks of financial systems being leveraged as tools of control.

Borderless and Unrestricted

You’re right that fees are part of traditional banking, and they’re often small in the U.S. But bitcoin’s borderless nature is transformative for people in the global economy:
  • Remittances: Immigrants sending money home often face exorbitant fees and delays with traditional systems (e.g., Western Union or SWIFT). Bitcoin allows instant, low-cost transfers anywhere in the world.
  • Cross-border payments: Entrepreneurs working across borders, especially in underbanked regions, often face limitations in accessing global banking networks. Bitcoin levels the playing field.
The average American may not face these challenges directly, but bitcoin’s borderless functionality creates new opportunities for global participation.

Self-Sovereignty & Security

You noted the convenience of getting a new card after losing one, which is true. But consider the principle: Who ultimately controls access to your funds? With bitcoin, you don’t rely on a bank or any intermediary—you control your wealth directly.

Regarding bank failures, while rare in the U.S., they do happen (e.g., Washington Mutual in 2008). FDIC insurance helps, but only up to $250,000, and it takes time for funds to be restored. With bitcoin, there’s no dependence on a third party for access, regardless of system failures or disruptions.
 

UpTheMiddlex3Punt

Well-known member
May 28, 2007
17,291
2,603
113
Some of the supposed drawbacks of traditional electronic banking are also features. If your debit card is stolen your can have transactions reversed. If you are scammed out of money you could have recourse to get the money back. If you are compelled under duress to transfer money, theoretically your bank could have ways of signaling this such that it appears the transaction goes through but in reality it won't. You could do no such thing on a Blockchain system. You either have the private key or you don't. Only one password will appear to work.

If the US government ever purchased Bitcoin and a disgruntled employee ever found out the private key, they could drain the account and the government would have no recourse to get it back. If I robbed Fort Knox and took every bar of gold to a private island on the other side of the world they would send every branch of the US military to get it back. If I hacked the Treasury department to get extra bonds they could just cancel them.
 

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
3,183
4,610
113
If the US government ever purchased Bitcoin and a disgruntled employee ever found out the private key, they could drain the account and the government would have no recourse to get it back. If I robbed Fort Knox and took every bar of gold to a private island on the other side of the world they would send every branch of the US military to get it back. If I hacked the Treasury department to get extra bonds they could just cancel them.
Bitcoin is more sophisticated than you understand. I used a singlesig, 12-word seed phrase as a simple example to explain a basic concept.

You might be surprised to know that the US government already holds bitcoin. But not using a singlesig, 12-word seed phrase. There are many solutions to just about every conceivable application of bitcoin, including bitcoin being held by a nation state or publicly traded company.

Examples of more sophisticated methods of securing bitcoin:

multisig: requires signatures from multiple private keys in order to move bitcoin
1737851036204.png

Shamir’s secret sharing: splits a key into several distributed “shares,” with only a certain threshold of the shares needed to reassemble the key
1737851057122.png

multi-party computation: involves distributed “shares,” similar to SSS. Unlike SSS, the shares are not split from a private key nor used to rebuild a private key. Instead, multiple parties compute a single signature directly from a threshold of their shares.
1737851080263.png
 

TrueMaroonGrind

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2017
3,720
953
113
Bitcoin is more sophisticated than you understand. I used a singlesig, 12-word seed phrase as a simple example to explain a basic concept.

You might be surprised to know that the US government already holds bitcoin. But not using a singlesig, 12-word seed phrase. There are many solutions to just about every conceivable application of bitcoin, including bitcoin being held by a nation state or publicly traded company.

Examples of more sophisticated methods of securing bitcoin:

multisig: requires signatures from multiple private keys in order to move bitcoin
View attachment 750325

Shamir’s secret sharing: splits a key into several distributed “shares,” with only a certain threshold of the shares needed to reassemble the key
View attachment 750326

multi-party computation: involves distributed “shares,” similar to SSS. Unlike SSS, the shares are not split from a private key nor used to rebuild a private key. Instead, multiple parties compute a single signature directly from a threshold of their shares.
View attachment 750327
Were you a Jehovah’s Witness before you converted to bitcoin?
 

UpTheMiddlex3Punt

Well-known member
May 28, 2007
17,291
2,603
113
Bitcoin is more sophisticated than you understand. I used a singlesig, 12-word seed phrase as a simple example to explain a basic concept.

You might be surprised to know that the US government already holds bitcoin. But not using a singlesig, 12-word seed phrase. There are many solutions to just about every conceivable application of bitcoin, including bitcoin being held by a nation state or publicly traded company.

Examples of more sophisticated methods of securing bitcoin:

multisig: requires signatures from multiple private keys in order to move bitcoin
View attachment 750325

Shamir’s secret sharing: splits a key into several distributed “shares,” with only a certain threshold of the shares needed to reassemble the key
View attachment 750326

multi-party computation: involves distributed “shares,” similar to SSS. Unlike SSS, the shares are not split from a private key nor used to rebuild a private key. Instead, multiple parties compute a single signature directly from a threshold of their shares.
View attachment 750327
Ultimate won't it boil down to a single private key? Like a naive implementation of this would be for each signer to have their own unique key (and phrase associated with that key) and they all get XORed together into a final key that is used for the wallet. But for an n of m implementation, wouldn't you need to store the actual private key encrypted by every n of m combination of keys? (This is assuming you don't have some stupid implementation where you store the private key in plaintext, even behind a supposedly secured enclave.) Like if there are 10 people on a committee and it takes 6 to sign off on a transaction, the multi sign wallet has to keep 210 different encrypted copies of the private key? Not entirely unreasonable. But ultimately that's a security guarantee of the wallet, not the network. The network only has to see that single private key.

I figure any organization that holds a significant amount of Bitcoin will do things to distribute the holdings across multiple wallets, but all it takes is one screw up and cryptocurrency can be lost forever.
 

IBleedMaroonDawg

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2007
24,090
8,274
113
Season 8 Wtf GIF by The Office


What is the thread about? Does anybody know?
 
  • Like
Reactions: M R DAWGS

Anon1717806835

Well-known member
Jun 7, 2024
336
864
93
I have two degrees and a finance related license that is not easy to get, but I guess its just one of those things that I will never understand.
While these events may seem distant to someone in a stable system like the U.S., bitcoin’s custody model ensures that your money is truly yours in any scenario
It is hard for me to envision Bitcoin ever "going mainstream" or taking the place of fiat currency if it would be the highest value to people who live and operate outside of a "stable system".
The lesson here is that anyone can be labeled a “terrorist” or “threat” to justify restricting access to the banking system, even for peaceful protests or dissent. Bitcoin’s permissionless nature ensures that access to your wealth isn’t contingent on someone else’s judgment or approval.
I guess I'm just naive, but I don't anticipate the U.S Government ever labeling me a "terrorist" or "threat". I pay my taxes, generally obey the laws, and about the only thing I've blown up lately is the toilet in the hall bathroom. Again, it seems like this is probably only a regular occurrence in places that are outside of "stable systems" and the mainstream economy.

Bitcoin is neutral and transparent—it doesn’t judge the morality of transactions. While that can be exploited by bad actors, it also protects legitimate users from censorship and unjust freezes. Again, the Canadian truckers’ example underscores the risks of financial systems being leveraged as tools of control.
I am ignorant as to the deal with the Canadian truckers, but I would bet that in general the instances of "exploitation by bad actors" significantly out numbers the instances of people people unjustly denied access to funds. That is for the mainstream banking system as well as Bitcoin, etc.

The average American may not face these challenges directly, but bitcoin’s borderless functionality creates new opportunities for global participation.
That sounds sweet, but so what?
Regarding bank failures, while rare in the U.S., they do happen (e.g., Washington Mutual in 2008). FDIC insurance helps, but only up to $250,000, and it takes time for funds to be restored. With bitcoin, there’s no dependence on a third party for access, regardless of system failures or disruptions.
I would bet the losses that people have taken due to the market volatility of Bitcoin substantially exceed the losses anyone has taken on bank deposits held with a failed bank in the United States in the past 20+ years, and probably longer than that. You mention Washington Mutual - it is still the largest bank failure in US history by a substantial margin - Washington Mutual was $307 billion and the next closest was Silicon Valley at $229 billion. Even still - not one depositor nor the FDIC lost a single penny. It was all absorbed by other Banks.
 

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
3,183
4,610
113
Ultimate won't it boil down to a single private key? Like a naive implementation of this would be for each signer to have their own unique key (and phrase associated with that key) and they all get XORed together into a final key that is used for the wallet. But for an n of m implementation, wouldn't you need to store the actual private key encrypted by every n of m combination of keys? (This is assuming you don't have some stupid implementation where you store the private key in plaintext, even behind a supposedly secured enclave.) Like if there are 10 people on a committee and it takes 6 to sign off on a transaction, the multi sign wallet has to keep 210 different encrypted copies of the private key? Not entirely unreasonable. But ultimately that's a security guarantee of the wallet, not the network. The network only has to see that single private key.

I figure any organization that holds a significant amount of Bitcoin will do things to distribute the holdings across multiple wallets, but all it takes is one screw up and cryptocurrency can be lost forever.
  1. “Ultimately, won’t it boil down to a single private key?”
    Not necessarily. For multisig and MPC, there isn’t a single private key stored somewhere that’s used to authorize transactions in the traditional sense. These methods are designed to distribute the ability to sign a transaction across multiple parties without any single point of failure.

    In multisig: The network itself enforces that a specific number (e.g., 2 of 3) of unique private keys must sign off before a transaction is valid. There’s no "final private key" being created; rather, the bitcoin network recognizes a special script requiring multiple signatures to authorize spending.

    In MPC: There’s no private key stored anywhere at all. Instead, multiple parties hold "shares" of cryptographic secrets, and they collaboratively generate a valid signature without ever reconstructing the private key. The result is a single signature visible to the bitcoin network, but it was never derived from a single key at any point.

    For Shamir’s Secret Sharing (SSS): You’re correct that it involves splitting a private key into multiple “shares” that can be recombined. However, in practice, SSS isn’t used for signing directly—it’s used for securely storing or backing up keys. SSS doesn’t result in a "final key" unless enough shares are reassembled (typically offline).
  2. “Wouldn’t you need to store the private key encrypted by every n of m combination of keys?”
    This isn’t how multisig works. A private key is not centrally stored in a properly implemented multisig wallet.

    The private keys in a multisig setup are independently generated and securely held by the individual signers. The multisig wallet is defined by a script (e.g., P2SH or P2WSH) that enforces the n-of-m rule. The private keys themselves never get combined or XORed.

    When a transaction is initiated, each required signer uses their private key to produce their own partial signature, which are then aggregated to satisfy the script conditions. The bitcoin network verifies that the transaction complies with the multisig script, not a single private key.

    For MPC: There’s no need to store the private key because it doesn’t exist in a traditional sense. The threshold of participants directly computes a signature based on their shares.
  3. “Isn’t this just a security guarantee of the wallet, not the network?”
    It’s true that the network itself only verifies valid signatures and doesn’t care how those signatures are produced. However, sophisticated key management methods like multisig, MPC, and SSS improve operational security at the wallet level. This is crucial for organizations, especially those managing large amounts of bitcoin.

    By using these methods:
    -They eliminate single points of failure. For example, losing one key or a device doesn’t mean the funds are lost.
    -They add robust protections against insider threats, external attacks, or human error.
    -They create flexible, scalable governance mechanisms that fit organizational needs (e.g., corporate treasuries, committees).

    This is a major advantage of bitcoin's flexibility: the network doesn’t dictate how keys are managed, so solutions can be tailored to virtually any application.
  4. “All it takes is one screw-up, and cryptocurrency can be lost forever.”
    This is true of any financial system, though bitcoin uniquely allows users to take full custody and control of their assets. However, sophisticated techniques like multisig, SSS, and MPC are explicitly designed to reduce the risk of such screw-ups.

    They help:
    -Ensure redundancy (e.g., losing one key doesn’t result in total loss).
    -Introduce fail-safes and clear operational workflows for accessing funds.
    -Limit the scope of any single mistake (e.g., a single compromised key doesn’t mean losing access to the funds).

    Ultimately, these techniques represent a trade-off between usability and security, but when implemented correctly, they significantly mitigate the risk of losing funds.
 

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
3,183
4,610
113
I would bet the losses that people have taken due to the market volatility of Bitcoin substantially exceed the losses anyone has taken on bank deposits held with a failed bank in the United States in the past 20+ years, and probably longer than that. You mention Washington Mutual - it is still the largest bank failure in US history by a substantial margin - Washington Mutual was $307 billion and the next closest was Silicon Valley at $229 billion. Even still - not one depositor nor the FDIC lost a single penny. It was all absorbed by other Banks.
The bitcoin price is currently near an ATH, so no one who accumulated bitcoin without selling has taken a loss. Even at the bottom of a bear market, if you've DCA'd for 3-5 years, you're still in the black. Feel free to back-test this. Cherry-pick the worst 3-, 4-, and 5-year periods in bitcoin's history.

So, if you know someone who took a loss on bitcoin, they were trading (buying AND selling), using leverage, or doing something else risky.

Regarding losses on bank deposits, you need to analyze purchasing power, not just nominal losses.
 

M R DAWGS

Well-known member
Apr 13, 2018
1,804
1,342
113
I'm still waiting for a store that prices things in units of Bitcoin or any other crypto.
This👆, I work with several crypto gurus who giggle over the skyrocketing “value”

Numbers on a computer don’t hold any value for me. True assets are tangible. Land, vehicles, houses, boats, guns, things that can sustain and protect you and your family. Yes, dollars in a bank are just numbers, but they can actually purchase tangible assets. Bitcoin can not do this. When people sell their position with bitcoin, they do so for dollars. Am I wrong?

If the **** hits the fan, things get real basic. If someone makes a bunch of dollars off of investing in bitcoin, good for them, but I don’t see the true value in made up digital algorithmic numbers. Food, water, and shelter will always hold value.

Any currency only holds value if the majority of people believe it does.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dawgg

ronpolk

Well-known member
May 6, 2009
8,361
3,060
113
I respect @pseudonym passion. It certainly has me curious.
I agree… he’s definitely done his homework on this. I just can’t wrap my around it as a legit currency. The pool of people/companies that want Bitcoin is so small that I don’t see it ever being widely used.

I get it as an investment. But I’d treat it like I do any investment, keep it small and get my money out once I’m satisfied with the return.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M R DAWGS

WilCoDawg

Well-known member
Sep 6, 2012
4,995
3,272
113
I agree… he’s definitely done his homework on this. I just can’t wrap my around it as a legit currency. The pool of people/companies that want Bitcoin is so small that I don’t see it ever being widely used.

I get it as an investment. But I’d treat it like I do any investment, keep it small and get my money out once I’m satisfied with the return.
I’m the same. It seems like a Ponzi scheme to me in the grand scheme of things. You give money to someone for a piece of an imaginary ”coin”. And no offense to anyone here, but the people into it are REALLY into it like those fitness people. It scares me off when people try to recruit others so heavily into something that isn’t a matter of life-and-death.
 

Anon1717806835

Well-known member
Jun 7, 2024
336
864
93
The bitcoin price is currently near an ATH, so no one who accumulated bitcoin without selling has taken a loss. Even at the bottom of a bear market, if you've DCA'd for 3-5 years, you're still in the black. Feel free to back-test this. Cherry-pick the worst 3-, 4-, and 5-year periods in bitcoin's history.

So, if you know someone who took a loss on bitcoin, they were trading (buying AND selling), using leverage, or doing something else risky.

Regarding losses on bank deposits, you need to analyze purchasing power, not just nominal losses.
You are trying to sell me on Bitcoin as a currency / unit of transfer, but you are describing attributes of an asset that is not a currency - stocks, bonds, commodities, etc. Have you ever heard of anyone "Dollar Cost Averaging" into dollars? The best way to transfer value in a transaction is currency - all of those "pros" you mention above are true I suppose, but nobody is going to pay 101,789 x the cost of a US Dollar just to be able make a transaction in Bitcoin.

I will grant that Bitcoin is a speculative investment - that's it. Digital gold is the best comparison. The advantage of Bitcoin over gold is that Bitcoin does not need to be carried around in a Brinks truck or kept under lock and key in Fort Knox. So if we factor that in, what else is there that makes Bitcoin more or less voluble than gold? What unit of measure of Bitcoin would be used to compare it to an ounce of gold? ETA - We need to add to this that gold does have some practical uses (outside of a store of value) that Bitcoin does not have - it is used in electronics and jewelry, and the price is also influenced by alternate metals that have similar uses - palladium, platinum, copper, silver.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ronpolk

mcdawg22

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2004
11,522
6,151
113
bitcoin seed phrasedebit or ATM card
ownership and custodyWhen you hold a private key, you are the sole owner of your funds. No bank, government, or third party can freeze, block, or confiscate your bitcoin.Your funds are held in a bank account, and the bank has control over that account. Your access can be restricted, accounts can be frozen, or transactions can be denied for various reasons (e.g., geopolitical sanctions, bank policies, or errors).
permissionless accessOperates on a decentralized network, meaning you don’t need permission to access or transfer your funds. If you have your seed phrase, you can restore and use your bitcoin anytime, anywhere, without relying on a bank or institution.Relies on centralized banking infrastructure, which requires permission to use. If the bank’s systems are down, your card is lost, or your account is flagged, you lose access.
censorship resistanceTransactions cannot be censored or blocked. Once you initiate a transaction and it’s included in the blockchain, no one can reverse or stop it.Transactions can be reversed, blocked, or declined, depending on the bank or payment network’s rules.
borderless and unrestrictedYou can cross any political boundary with just your seed phrase and restore your bitcoin anywhere, without customs declarations, foreign exchange limitations, or physical assets.Tied to a specific bank and country, and their use is often subject to cross-border transaction fees, currency exchange rules, or even regional blocks depending on sanctions or policies.
self-sovereignty and securityGives you self-sovereignty over your wealth. The security of your funds depends on how well you protect your private key or seed phrase. There’s no middleman.Relies on the security of the banking system. If the bank is hacked, your funds could be at risk. If you lose your card or the bank fails, accessing your funds could become a problem.

Bitcoin’s primary value lies in its decentralized, permissionless, and censorship-resistant nature, giving you full control over your wealth without needing to trust a third party. Debit cards, while convenient, operate within the constraints of traditional financial systems that depend on intermediaries and can impose restrictions.
How are Fraud and Disputes handled?
 

mstateglfr

Well-known member
Feb 24, 2008
13,966
3,846
113
You are trying to sell me on Bitcoin as a currency / unit of transfer, but you are describing attributes of an asset that is not a currency - stocks, bonds, commodities, etc. Have you ever heard of anyone "Dollar Cost Averaging" into dollars? The best way to transfer value in a transaction is currency - all of those "pros" you mention above are true I suppose, but nobody is going to pay 101,789 x the cost of a US Dollar just to be able make a transaction in Bitcoin.

I will grant that Bitcoin is a speculative investment - that's it. Digital gold is the best comparison.
So well said.

A few weeks ago my HS kid went deep into learning about bitcoin history, the concept of blockchain, and its value as a currency/commodity. She came to me super confused afterwards because she understood bitcoin being a digital commodity and valuable based on speculation, but couldnt understand why anyone would actually want the currency they use to buy things with to have such volatile swings in value because it makes things really difficult to price at any given moment.

I was like...'yep, nailed it' because I still cant understand why anyone would advocate for the use of volatile currency.
Some other countries tie their currency to the USD because it is relatively strong and relatively stable. That is beneficial in international trade...which is often based off the USD.
Stable currency is what everyone wants, at least those who actually do international trade.


If/when bitcoin value stabilizes, then the discussion of it being a beneficial currency can be honestly had.
 

mstateglfr

Well-known member
Feb 24, 2008
13,966
3,846
113
I’m the same. It seems like a Ponzi scheme to me in the grand scheme of things. You give money to someone for a piece of an imaginary ”coin”.
Imagine creating a digital coin just to hold 80% of them and rake in tens of millions of dollars off of the transactions related to the remaining 20%.
And the craziest part is it isnt even a pozi scheme or a rug pull scheme(since the majority holders have a 3 year sell schedule)- its just a way to quickly rake in tens of millions of dollars in transaction fees.

This truly is a wild time to be alive. It would be difficult to convince people from just 25 years ago of a lot of the things we are doing right now to create value and wealth.
 

Darryl Steight

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2022
2,151
3,393
113
I couldn’t agree with you more because I have experienced a spiritual awakening by taking the 12 steps in my recovery from alcoholism. That is really the only solution the 12 step communities offer to the alcoholic, addict, etc.

I hope POTUS has experienced an awakening but his word and actions don’t seem to reflect the fruit of the spirit to me. Plus, he just seems to be angry most of the time with that scowl on his face. In any event, it really doesn’t matter what I think, it’s important what he thinks and does.

By the way, here’s the clip I saw. It seems real and recent but I really have no idea given how “they” can alter things so well today.


It's funny but I think this might be an example of people hearing what they want to hear. I have listened a few times and I think he said "I'm - aaa - Christian" but he kind of stumbles over it so I can definitely hear the "I'm not Christian" interpretation too. He definitely doesn't say "I'm not A Christian" as the title of the video says. It's one syllable either way.

The logo behind him leads me to believe he's speaking at a Turning Point USA gathering, which is Charlie Kirk's outfit. Heavily Judeo-Christian led group. Charlie is an outspoken Christian. I really doubt Trump would be dumb enough to say "I'm not Christian" in front of that group, especially if he's some evil non-Christian mastermind who would say whatever it takes to get elected. They would have probably booed him off stage and certainly raised holy hell about it before voting for him.

Not that any of this matters, as you said - what's important is what he really thinks and does. But it was definitely an interesting clip that made me do a double take.

By the way - congrats on your recovery journey, and keep up the good work. That's awesome.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dorndawg

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
3,183
4,610
113
You are trying to sell me on Bitcoin as a currency / unit of transfer, but you are describing attributes of an asset that is not a currency - stocks, bonds, commodities, etc. Have you ever heard of anyone "Dollar Cost Averaging" into dollars? The best way to transfer value in a transaction is currency - all of those "pros" you mention above are true I suppose, but nobody is going to pay 101,789 x the cost of a US Dollar just to be able make a transaction in Bitcoin.

I will grant that Bitcoin is a speculative investment - that's it. Digital gold is the best comparison. The advantage of Bitcoin over gold is that Bitcoin does not need to be carried around in a Brinks truck or kept under lock and key in Fort Knox. So if we factor that in, what else is there that makes Bitcoin more or less voluble than gold? What unit of measure of Bitcoin would be used to compare it to an ounce of gold? ETA - We need to add to this that gold does have some practical uses (outside of a store of value) that Bitcoin does not have - it is used in electronics and jewelry, and the price is also influenced by alternate metals that have similar uses - palladium, platinum, copper, silver.
One, I'm not trying to sell you on anything. My posts aim to explain how bitcoin works to people who don't understand it. Your original question was, "How is this any different than a debit or ATM card?" in response to my mentioning the borderless nature of a bitcoin private key. I explained how it is very different.

The post you quoted was in response to your claim that losses people have taken due to bitcoin's volatility exceed bank losses. I explained that no such loss exists if you are willing to do the responsible thing: buy and hold without selling for 3+ years. (see attached)

nobody is going to pay 101,789 x the cost of a US Dollar just to be able make a transaction in Bitcoin.
The above isn't true. That's like saying, "nobody is going to pay 150 x the cost of a US Dollar just to be able make a transaction in Japanese Yen." Again, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just trying to clarify misunderstandings and give my perspective.

You’re absolutely right that it doesn't make sense to DCA into dollars. One, you would be converting dollars into dollars. But it also doesn't make sense to use the dollar as a long-term savings vehicle. That’s because fiat currencies are inflationary and unsuited for long-term value preservation.

I agree that bitcoin has no physical utility like gold in electronics or jewelry. However, this actually works to its advantage as a digital store of value. Its lack of physical dependency decouples its value from supply-and-demand shocks in industrial use. Gold’s price can be influenced by external factors like mining production or substitutes in industry (e.g., palladium), while bitcoin's adoption and network effects entirely dictate its price.

Bitcoin’s portability, divisibility, and verifiability give it advantages over gold as a store of value in the digital age. As you said, you don’t need a Brinks truck or a vault—bitcoin is secured cryptographically and can be transferred globally with just an internet connection. For people looking to preserve value in a rapidly digitizing world, this is a compelling proposition.
 

Attachments

  • btc.pdf
    708.7 KB · Views: 1

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
3,183
4,610
113
Imagine creating a digital coin just to hold 80% of them and rake in tens of millions of dollars off of the transactions related to the remaining 20%.
And the craziest part is it isnt even a pozi scheme or a rug pull scheme(since the majority holders have a 3 year sell schedule)- its just a way to quickly rake in tens of millions of dollars in transaction fees.

This truly is a wild time to be alive. It would be difficult to convince people from just 25 years ago of a lot of the things we are doing right now to create value and wealth.
To be clear, you're talking about crypto, not bitcoin, correct?

Bitcoin is fundamentally different in its design and principles. It wasn’t pre-mined, meaning the creator (or creators) didn’t reserve a percentage for themselves before releasing it. Instead, it was launched transparently, with everyone starting on equal footing.

Bitcoin’s supply is capped at 21 million coins, and its distribution follows a predictable and decentralized schedule through mining. No central authority or individual controls the majority of the supply, and no one collects transaction fees to profit personally. Miners compete to validate transactions, and fees are distributed as part of the system’s incentive structure.

While crypto exploits the dynamics you describe—where founders or insiders hold a massive share and profit from others buying in—bitcoin operates as an open, decentralized monetary system. It’s important to distinguish between bitcoin and crypto, which have different motivations and mechanisms.
 

ckDOG

Well-known member
Dec 11, 2007
8,664
3,276
113
It's funny but I think this might be an example of people hearing what they want to hear. I have listened a few times and I think he said "I'm - aaa - Christian" but he kind of stumbles over it so I can definitely hear the "I'm not Christian" interpretation too. He definitely doesn't say "I'm not A Christian" as the title of the video says. It's one syllable either way.

The logo behind him leads me to believe he's speaking at a Turning Point USA gathering, which is Charlie Kirk's outfit. Heavily Judeo-Christian led group. Charlie is an outspoken Christian. I really doubt Trump would be dumb enough to say "I'm not Christian" in front of that group, especially if he's some evil non-Christian mastermind who would say whatever it takes to get elected. They would have probably booed him off stage and certainly raised holy hell about it before voting for him.

Not that any of this matters, as you said - what's important is what he really thinks and does. But it was definitely an interesting clip that made me do a double take.

By the way - congrats on your recovery journey, and keep up the good work. That's awesome.
Trump is a lot of things but he's not dumb enough to say he's not Christian even if it were true.
 

mstateglfr

Well-known member
Feb 24, 2008
13,966
3,846
113
To be clear, you're talking about crypto, not bitcoin, correct?

Bitcoin is fundamentally different in its design and principles. It wasn’t pre-mined, meaning the creator (or creators) didn’t reserve a percentage for themselves before releasing it. Instead, it was launched transparently, with everyone starting on equal footing.

Bitcoin’s supply is capped at 21 million coins, and its distribution follows a predictable and decentralized schedule through mining. No central authority or individual controls the majority of the supply, and no one collects transaction fees to profit personally. Miners compete to validate transactions, and fees are distributed as part of the system’s incentive structure.

While crypto exploits the dynamics you describe—where founders or insiders hold a massive share and profit from others buying in—bitcoin operates as an open, decentralized monetary system. It’s important to distinguish between bitcoin and crypto, which have different motivations and mechanisms.
Correct, I was not talking about bitcoin.
I was referring to the recent Trump and Melania coins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pseudonym
Get unlimited access today.

Pick the right plan for you.

Already a member? Login