South Florida Building $340 Million On Site Stadium
- Thread starter Dawgg
- Start date
Ok. No more "Target" jokes
I mean no offense, but I don't see a "big picture" strategic plan from your current or previous narratives. You can be "beyond" the fact that people are leaving the state -- the population of Mississippi has been in decline for 8-9 years. There are reasons that people are leaving, and I would contend that many of those reasons are similar to the reasons people aren't looking to relocate to Mississippi.
How do you address this emigration problem and still address the challenges of recruiting people, as well as new and emerging industries, to the state? MSU and its sister universities can't carry all that freight.
Regardless of your "cred quals," this is a challenging problem that other states that are better positioned economically and yet they have not completely solved it. And while most on this board aren't "haters" of the state, in fact, I think it is well established by the majority on this board -- even by many not currently residing in the state -- that they want it to "succeed" (depending on how success is defined)
So what is Mississippi to do to adapt? Or is it that Mississippi doesn't really want to change? The answers aren't clear and the "solutions" will not be easy nor likely quick.
Ive never been shy about offering solutions, and I think it can be fixed. Here are things that need to happen:
1. The state has to eliminate personal income tax. Tennessee, Florida and Texas are very attractive. This is being worked on, but the state has to do it.
2. Jackson has to be fixed. This is hurting MSU indirectly. Young professionals want to live in cities and Mississippi does not have a livable city option. Madison and Rankin Counties are nice, but young professionals want to be in cities. Nashville, Dallas, Atlanta - all booming. Even Memphis and Birmingham are great options. All of those places have crime. All of them are blue cities. Hard decisions are going to have to be made regarding Jackson.
3. Mississippi State University has to want to keep talented in-state kids. If you don't have a kid approaching college, you will be shocked. My story and the anecdotes in this thread are not uncommon. When all is said and done, Mississippi State will likely be the cheapest bottom line for most students. That is obviously not good enough. Like most of you, I have a healthy 529 account. The Florida schools, Arkansas, South Carolina, and Texas A&M will all be within $5000/year of MSU's bottom line. Will probably be closer to $2k-$3k. For those of us that saved for college, that is not going to be a huge factor in our decision.
The solution is simple. Pick the ACT score. Might be 31+ based on the rest of the Southeast. A 31+ should result in zero tuition for an in-state student. Not $4000. $0. It is also incredibly frustrating to me as a parent when my income keeps me from the full ride (see Mississippi State Promise). The Promise sounds great but its a huge factor in our best and brightest leaving Mississippi. If my HHI were $42,000 or less, it wouldn't matter if my child had a 2.0 and an 18. Full ride. Sorry, its not right.
Edited to Add: This is on the high end, but its important. Luxury Apartment (Vista Starkville) 3BR cost is $2490 per month. The same company owns similar apartments near USF and the 3 BR cost is $2520 per month. Both are 5-6 minutes from campus.
1. The state has to eliminate personal income tax. Tennessee, Florida and Texas are very attractive. This is being worked on, but the state has to do it.
2. Jackson has to be fixed. This is hurting MSU indirectly. Young professionals want to live in cities and Mississippi does not have a livable city option. Madison and Rankin Counties are nice, but young professionals want to be in cities. Nashville, Dallas, Atlanta - all booming. Even Memphis and Birmingham are great options. All of those places have crime. All of them are blue cities. Hard decisions are going to have to be made regarding Jackson.
3. Mississippi State University has to want to keep talented in-state kids. If you don't have a kid approaching college, you will be shocked. My story and the anecdotes in this thread are not uncommon. When all is said and done, Mississippi State will likely be the cheapest bottom line for most students. That is obviously not good enough. Like most of you, I have a healthy 529 account. The Florida schools, Arkansas, South Carolina, and Texas A&M will all be within $5000/year of MSU's bottom line. Will probably be closer to $2k-$3k. For those of us that saved for college, that is not going to be a huge factor in our decision.
The solution is simple. Pick the ACT score. Might be 31+ based on the rest of the Southeast. A 31+ should result in zero tuition for an in-state student. Not $4000. $0. It is also incredibly frustrating to me as a parent when my income keeps me from the full ride (see Mississippi State Promise). The Promise sounds great but its a huge factor in our best and brightest leaving Mississippi. If my HHI were $42,000 or less, it wouldn't matter if my child had a 2.0 and an 18. Full ride. Sorry, its not right.
Edited to Add: This is on the high end, but its important. Luxury Apartment (Vista Starkville) 3BR cost is $2490 per month. The same company owns similar apartments near USF and the 3 BR cost is $2520 per month. Both are 5-6 minutes from campus.
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I think UPig does the out of state discount for all adjacent states now. They've been doing it for Texas, OK, MO for a while. I would estimate that 1/3 of all UPig students come from Texas because the out of state discount make it cheaper than staying in Texas. I'm not sure if recruiting Mississippi kids is a new thing but I have been noticing more Mississippi tags on cars lately.
And then IF you get them in school here in MS, what's going to keep them here after school? At that point you've given up a bunch of incentives (scholly's, meals, dorms, etc etc ) and for what, for them to take off for a big city and big company out of state? Then you are left holding an empty bag.....
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Exactly.
I really don't think the colleges will be a part of the solution, outside of what they already do, which I alluded to in post #16 (last paragraph).
One huge problem with that idea is that the cheapest isn't good enough or big enough.
615 mentioned it in comment #44 and I've quoted it below.
Essentially, MSU's policy is driving away kids whose parents are more than willing to provide for them.
And that's bad for MSU and Mississippi because family income has long been correlated with GPAs.
Is Income Implicit in Measures of Student Ability? — Penn Wharton Budget Model
Measures of student ability typically used for college admissions implicitly reflect differences in family income across students. However, high school GPA reflects differences in income noticeably less than SAT and ACT scores. However, SAT and ACT scores do capture aspects of student ability missed
budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu
Born to Win, Schooled to Lose: Why Equally Talented Students Don't Get Equal Chances to Be All They Can Be - CEW Georgetown
Born To Win, Schooled To Lose: Why Equally Talented Students Don’t Get Equal Chances to Be All They Can Be shows that the American Dream promises that individual talent will be rewarded, regardless of where one comes from or who one’s parents are. But the reality of what transpires along...
cew.georgetown.edu
When I look at those two articles, full of data, I condense it down into these thoughts:One huge problem with that idea is that the cheapest isn't good enough or big enough.
615 mentioned it in comment #44 and I've quoted it below.
Essentially, MSU's policy is driving away kids whose parents are more than willing to provide for them.
And that's bad for MSU and Mississippi because family income has long been correlated with GPAs.
Is Income Implicit in Measures of Student Ability? — Penn Wharton Budget Model
Measures of student ability typically used for college admissions implicitly reflect differences in family income across students. However, high school GPA reflects differences in income noticeably less than SAT and ACT scores. However, SAT and ACT scores do capture aspects of student ability missed
Born to Win, Schooled to Lose: Why Equally Talented Students Don't Get Equal Chances to Be All They Can Be - CEW Georgetown
Born To Win, Schooled To Lose: Why Equally Talented Students Don’t Get Equal Chances to Be All They Can Be shows that the American Dream promises that individual talent will be rewarded, regardless of where one comes from or who one’s parents are. But the reality of what transpires along...
First article: I agree with the premise, but if the opportunities to generate that family income (which it's highly likely they are using W2 income) are not there, what's the point, as it relates to MSU? The employers are simply not here (as compared to bigger cities elsewhere).
Second article just seems like another article trying to throw out discrimination, which DOES occur in schools, but not due to some sinister force. It's just the way of people. People with more means will push their kids harder. But to me it's more of an indictment on the whole 'school' system. To me, schools are more of an economic driver than they are some sort of educating factory. The best and brightest never had a chance in 'schools' with everybody else. The whole idea is to create obedient robots, so the best and brightest have to do different things. Same with college.
So again, I don't think that MSU's policies are the problem here. I don't even think it's a Mississippi problem when it comes to schools, that's just a symptom. Some people think that the solutions start with schools, whether high school or college. I don't.
All I'm saying is it is incredibly frustrating to see kids that do the bare minimum to graduate, make an 18 on their ACT after 7 tries, end up with a better deal to go to MSU than students that work hard, maintain leadership roles, do extracurriculars, make straight As and 30+ on their ACTs.
Here's the real data.
Mississippi State tuition: $9,210
Student A: 4.0 GPA/30 ACT, HHI >$44,000
$5000 merit scholarship
$2000 leadership scholarship
$2,210 from family
Student B: 2.0 GPA, 17 ACT, HHI <$44,000
$6500 Pell Grant
$3710 MSU Promise Grant
$0 from family
Its discouraging and quite honestly is keeping top students from considering MSU
Here's the real data.
Mississippi State tuition: $9,210
Student A: 4.0 GPA/30 ACT, HHI >$44,000
$5000 merit scholarship
$2000 leadership scholarship
$2,210 from family
Student B: 2.0 GPA, 17 ACT, HHI <$44,000
$6500 Pell Grant
$3710 MSU Promise Grant
$0 from family
Its discouraging and quite honestly is keeping top students from considering MSU
And that's where you're missing our points.
An educated workforce attracts companies.
An educated workforce attracts people.
Corporations don't want dubmasses.
People don't want to be around dubmasses.
Mississippi and MSU are unfortunately pro-dubmass.
If those numbers are correct, I 100% agree with you. But even still, those are comparisons within Mississippi. It's still a better deal for your kid to go to MSU rather than USF (as per earlier example).
And I can't imagine Student B really would go for free? You know more about Pell and Promise than I do. Is that really a common occurrence? If so, my kids will be headed to JUCO.
Again, never said MSU wasn't the cheapest option. It's just closer and when you consider other factors, you are seeing high achievers leave the state.
The Promise program basically covers the difference between Pell/scholarships and tuition. So to be fair, if our HHI qualified, they would also take care of the $2200.
Promise Student Support Program | Promise
No, I got the points. I just don't fully agree.
I agree we've got a lot of dubmasses. But I'm not sure what the best way is to keep the smart ones here. So many of our homegrown high-achievers are leaving anyway - that has nothing to do with MSU. Whereas, I think we have a better shot of out-of-staters coming here and 'falling in love', instead of catering to jaded homegrown folks. That's how Clemson did it - they recruited all those people from NJ and NY.
So, if we're talking about what MSU should do - first thing is to pick an out-of-state area or select area(s) that match what they want the growth to be in MS, and recruit the hell out of it. My thought has always been the energy sector - so go to Houston and East Texas.
Clemson is significantly more selective than MSU.
They may be an Ag school but they don't have dubmasses.
If all you need is 18 and 2.0, why isn't every student going this route? I mean it's free college.....Again, never said MSU wasn't the cheapest option. It's just closer and when you consider other factors, you are seeing high achievers leave the state.
The Promise program basically covers the difference between Pell/scholarships and tuition. So to be fair, if our HHI qualified, they would also take care of the $2200.
Promise Student Support Program | Promise
www.promise.msstate.edu
That's actually an interesting question: is it "better" for a university like Mississippi State to enroll 1 34 ACT or 5 24 ACT's? And which is "better" for taxpayers who foot a portion of the bill?
I think the point was not about the cheapest option, it was that USF, an AAU member, made the number close enough to give him something to think about. You would think that the gap between in state tuition at MSU vs an out of state AAU school would be much wider than $2000.
Also, “better deal” is subjective. Cheapest option doesn’t necessarily mean better deal.
Exactly.
This is a classic example of Sam Vimes' Boots Theory.
Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness | Terry Pratchett
Perhaps one of the most popular quotes from the Discworld series is Sam Vimes’s ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-economic Unfairness, propounded in Men at Arms: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned...
terrypratchett.com
I miss Pterry.
There are a lot of them that do. Hence we are rated by U.S. News as the worst in the SEC and third worst Power 5 university in the country.*
* -Pending Cincinnati's addition to the Big 12. We will then be No. 4.
This part stood out to me:Exactly.
This is a classic example of Sam Vimes' Boots Theory.
Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness | Terry Pratchett
Perhaps one of the most popular quotes from the Discworld series is Sam Vimes’s ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-economic Unfairness, propounded in Men at Arms: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned...
I miss Pterry.
“It’s easy to save money when you are rich. Poverty is both expensive and time consuming.”
Very true.
Mississippi has a really good community college system. Unfortunately Last Chance U has motivated them all to be sports factories rather than academic institutions.
The community colleges should be educating the 18/2.0 kids. Instead, we are giving them full tuition at our premier state universities. Mississippi has a crapload of these kids. They aren't prepared and they are failing out quickly. So now we have to put more academic resources toward saving those kids and take away from the ones that are doing well.
Mississippi State should have a reciprocal agreement with every community college to transfer credits, that's fine. But there's a problem with Mississippi State offering SEVEN sections of Basic English (non-credit, below Comp I) and EIGHT sections of math below College Algebra. There should be zero of both.
The community colleges should be educating the 18/2.0 kids. Instead, we are giving them full tuition at our premier state universities. Mississippi has a crapload of these kids. They aren't prepared and they are failing out quickly. So now we have to put more academic resources toward saving those kids and take away from the ones that are doing well.
Mississippi State should have a reciprocal agreement with every community college to transfer credits, that's fine. But there's a problem with Mississippi State offering SEVEN sections of Basic English (non-credit, below Comp I) and EIGHT sections of math below College Algebra. There should be zero of both.
Sports programs and their affiliated organizations (band, cheerleaders, etc.) have long been the front doors for the state's jucos.
I've argued in the past that they've been at least justifiable because there's at least an emphasis on offering scholarships to Mississippians and allows many of them to attend at a decreased cost (and the Miss. juco league has limited scholarships to out-of-staters).
And you're right. The jucos need to educate those 18/2.0 kids.
Keenum agrees with us too. I've shared this link previously as you probably know.
Got a 17 on your ACT? Mark Keenum doesn’t want you at Mississippi State
Mississippi State's president says financial aid programs often take money away from students with high ACT scores.
mississippitoday.org
Is it? Or is it because higher-achieving students are simply more attracted to prestigious schools? Seems like the type of degree you get is the most important thing.Exactly.
This is a classic example of Sam Vimes' Boots Theory.
Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness | Terry Pratchett
Perhaps one of the most popular quotes from the Discworld series is Sam Vimes’s ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-economic Unfairness, propounded in Men at Arms: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned...
I miss Pterry.
How likely are we to actually change the admission standards in Mississippi? That's the point, seems like a futile effort to complain about this.Sports programs and their affiliated organizations (band, cheerleaders, etc.) have long been the front doors for the state's jucos.
I've argued in the past that they've been at least justifiable because there's at least an emphasis on offering scholarships to Mississippians and allows many of them to attend at a decreased cost (and the Miss. juco league has limited scholarships to out-of-staters).
And you're right. The jucos need to educate those 18/2.0 kids.
Keenum agrees with us too. I've shared this link previously as you probably know.
Got a 17 on your ACT? Mark Keenum doesn’t want you at Mississippi State
Mississippi State's president says financial aid programs often take money away from students with high ACT scores.
High-achievers are going to have to simply CHOOSE Mississippi, to go to school or live. How to incentivize that is the question. Cheap, decent schooling is about all I see that MSU/Ole Miss/USM/etc. can offer there. We have to look in other areas.
You get what you pay for.
If you want something cheap, you get more headaches.
The admission standards don't necessarily have to be changed because Mississippi is poor.
But if you want to change them, some more money for the HBCUs will go a long way...
I think it's a balance. Sure, if you're hiring an entry level job in a specific field (i.e. engineering), you want someone with a degree in that field, but if you're hiring for marketing or sales or Project Management or some other general office work, I would argue where you got your degree can be as important as what your degree is. Looking at it through the Texas lens, a communication studies degree from the University of Texas at Austin is going to open more doors than a business degree from the University of Texas at Arlington or North Texas or Texas State. Also, that same 'tie-breaker' is going to apply to those specialized areas too. An engineering grad from Texas A&M is going to have more options out of college than an engineering grad from North Texas.
Of course, there comes a point where your alma mater (and degree) matters less and your work history matters more, but we're talking about recent/soon to be graduates looking for jobs out of college.
Boots, agree. Cheaper consumer goods, absolutely.
Education? Eh.....
Even real estate? Vehicles? That's not a linear equation...
When you say change admission standards in Mississippi, do you mean Mississippi as a whole or just Mississippi State, Ole Miss, and maybe Southern Miss?
I think you could absolutely change the admission standards for the 'big 3' without having a detrimental effect on the state as a whole. I feel like Mississippi has enough 2 and 4 year colleges throughout the state between JUCOs, HBCUs, Delta State, and the W to accommodate those 18 ACT/2.0 incoming freshmen.
Right, but I guess what I’m spitballing is a system where the state law allows the 4 year universities greater individual autonomy over their existing enrollment standards and scholarships.
For example, if Mississippi State wants to raise their standards to a 20 ACT and a 3.0 GPA, then they could have the autonomy to do that, but they would have to deal with the fall out of declining enrollment and have to figure out how to remain viable financially with lower enrollment numbers, at least initially.
Maybe Delta State wants those 18 ACT/2.0 GPA kids, so they could keep their standards where they are.
JUCOs wouldn’t have this option. They’re literally there for the purpose of providing opportunities or creating an entry way into college for students who aren’t ready or don’t qualify for 4 year schools.
I’m sure it’s way more complex than I just described, but throwing hands in the air and saying “welp, state law says I have to let them in” doesn’t seem like the right call.
Education is a consumer good, Goat.
People choose what they want to study and where.
Right.
But what he can do is what 615 mentioned and that's change the financial aid, grant, and scholarship formula: Make it more difficult for them to go to Mississippi State and instead go to Scooba.
Declining enrollment is going to happen anyway with the Enrollment Cliff happening in 2025 which is a big reason I suspect Keenum and MSU are going with the Mediocrity approach.
I'd expect financial aid, grant, and scholarship changes to occur when the Post-Cliff enrollment stabilizes.
But we can stop giving them full rides.
That's the issue. You stop paying 100% of their tuition and they start looking at junior colleges where they can get the remedial classes and prepare for two years at Mississippi State.
When my kids were young and ringing cowbells for Boobie and Dak, I had no idea it would be so difficult to convince them to attend MSU like both of their parents and many of their other family members. Again, it's anecdotical, but I feel it's a combo of (1) no opportunity in Mississippi and (2) they feel undervalued compared to the offers they get elsewhere. Their classmates that they have dealt with dumbing down their high school experience are getting full rides and they look at it and say - I want to leave the state.
As far as I have found, there is no other Southeastern state covering full tuition at their premier universities for 17-18 ACT kids. Hell, only Arkansas allows admission other than us and Ole Miss.
Alabama's out of state tuition is really high and it's hard to get it waived. If they ever changed that, I would see a bigger exodus. Arkansas waives it for border states. Florida schools waive it for outstanding test scores and they have the lowest tuition in America.
So it brings us full circle to where this started.
The University of South Florida, a school I have zero affiliation with and is 10 hours away. A school that is a top 100 university (top 50 public) and a member of the prestigious AAU (only 67 in the entire country) and located in an incredible city is going to be about $2000 more expensive a year than my in-state alma mater who is rated as the worst academic school in the SEC and the third worst Power 5 college in the country. As much as I hate it, it's going to be a tough sell.
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If you really want change, appoint independent boards of trustees and eliminate the IHL. It is essentially a "rubber stamp" mechanism that is mired in red-tape and politics.
JUCOs/COCOs/Technical schools are the future of skilled/certified workforce. Mississippi is solid in this area. K-12 needs to be shored up with better resources for improvement.
I think you just hit on something here. MSU has been touting huge enrollment numbers for years now, and all the economic development around Starkville that comes with this. It'll get ugly if a lot of that is sitting vacant.
So yeah I agree, we're probably going to get even more dubmasses, and more high achievers will leave. And the middle class pays for it all. But it's not like that's not something we are not used to.
So I get it. We'll eventually have to convince some high achievers to come 'home', OR find a way to recruit other people, from different areas with different ideas, to come here. What's most likely? I'm going with the latter. Entice them with cheap land or something, I don't really know. None of it matters though, without Jackson getting its sh*t together, because that's where people would want to go, there or the Coast, which will be wiped out every 35 years. Maybe Natchez or Vicksburg for those weird types that like to renovate old sh*t.
There may not be an answer. But I'm way past the point of just sh*tting on everything Mississippi. I know for a fact that doesn't help.
Man, Mississippi is great. I have a great job, earning around 500%/year more than my fellow classmates that went off to the big city to work, doing the exact same job, but I own my company now and they are just about to get ready to buy their first house.
I have gained most of the life experiences that everyone that left did. I moved around early in my career, took advantage of the low cost of living to do pretty much everything I wanted to do in life up until this point including visiting places my buddies that went to work in New York have never had the scratch to do all the while stockpiling on average 30k per year into outside investments.
I met great people, great clients, and generally like what I do. All here in Mississippi.
I wish we could have a bit more diversity in our leadership, of course. So does California, Texas, and New York. We need a democrat to hold power in this state every so often. Just to remind republicans to work for their people. It is bad news when people are entrenched into power. They get lazy and stop hustling.
I have gained most of the life experiences that everyone that left did. I moved around early in my career, took advantage of the low cost of living to do pretty much everything I wanted to do in life up until this point including visiting places my buddies that went to work in New York have never had the scratch to do all the while stockpiling on average 30k per year into outside investments.
I met great people, great clients, and generally like what I do. All here in Mississippi.
I wish we could have a bit more diversity in our leadership, of course. So does California, Texas, and New York. We need a democrat to hold power in this state every so often. Just to remind republicans to work for their people. It is bad news when people are entrenched into power. They get lazy and stop hustling.