T/O: Why do people think this has only recently been happening?

[MagicDawg]

College profs love students to be independent and show initiative. However, many of them don’t.

I think a lot of college professors, particularly in the humanities, love "independent thought" that aligns with THEIR "independent thought." They consider people "independent thinkers" if they think more like they do.

Real "independent thought" that happens to align with thinking by people/groups they don't like will not be considered "independent." But lockstep conformity with the correct activist group will be considered "freethinking."

Sadly I had more than one professor at State who exemplified this sort of pigeonholing of students. And I've seen it and its outcomes for students, faculty, and staff at other academic institutions in Mississippi and elsewhere.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I think a lot of college professors, particularly in the humanities, love "independent thought" that aligns with THEIR "independent thought." They consider people "independent thinkers" if they think more like they do.

Yeah and…

It reminds me of the old joke: “how do you know if someone is intelligent?

how much what that person says is something you agree with.”

That’s why I like to pair that with initiative.

People have different interpretations of what’s considered independent.

But if you can do things while acting according to your thoughts and beliefs: people like that a lot. Well, I do anyway.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Hum, home schooling

Don’t be coming in here with facts that challenge the status quo

 

[MagicDawg]

But if you can do things while acting according to your thoughts and beliefs: people like that a lot. Well, I do anyway.

I have a family member on the academic-career-ending receiving end of "we say we like independent thought but not really if you don't align with us" politics at a university.

 

[blitz2Win]

I have a family member on the academic-career-ending receiving end of "we say we like independent thought but not really if you don't align with us" politics at a university.

That was going on 30 years ago , back then writing an essay in freshman English rhetoric 101, if you took a position pro 2nd amendment, pro life, against illegal immigration, you would get a letter grade dropped from a b to a c.

I know a student in law school who can’t post anything remotely conservative on Twitter because of fear of retribution in the class room. It’s bad now.

 

[WilCoDawg]

You caught me. I’m an aspiring writer who spends days editing fiction for SPS. Beyond instilling Christian principles, what reasons do your friend send their kids to homeschool? That’s literally the only reason I’ve ever heard my friends state.

I’ve met many families who have the means to be able to take joy in teaching their children themselves without fear of unchecked radical ideology in public schools. The ones I know that want their children to receive a Christian-focused education send them to Christian private schools.

 

[blitz2Win]

I’ve met many families who have the means to be able to take joy in teaching their children themselves without fear of unchecked radical ideology in public schools. The ones I know that want their children to receive a Christian-focused education send them to Christian private schools.

You know it’s funny, most of the statesman in the 1700 and 1800s learned at home, had tutors, read wide ranges of literature and were brilliant and extremely well educated.

Being in a cinderblock building does not necessarily expand your mind.

 

[Podgy]

I think a lot of college professors, particularly in the humanities, love "independent thought" that aligns with THEIR "independent thought." They consider people "independent thinkers" if they think more like they do.

Real "independent thought" that happens to align with thinking by people/groups they don't like will not be considered "independent." But lockstep conformity with the correct activist group will be considered "freethinking."

Sadly I had more than one professor at State who exemplified this sort of pigeonholing of students. And I've seen it and its outcomes for students, faculty, and staff at other academic institutions in Mississippi and elsewhere.

Some of the dumbest ideas are held by professors in the humanities and social sciences. It's Qanon-level at times but with better vocabulary and sentence structure.

 

[Podgy]

Homeschoolers are fine. Parents matter the most regarding outcomes. A recent development is the increase in the number of black Americans who homeschool. Not surprising when you realize that there's not one single public school district in the country where more than 25% of black students are reading and doing math at grade level.

Another unfortunate aspect of K-12 education is that school attendance appears to increase the risk of suicide in teens. I'm not taking a dig at K-12 teachers, most of whom are good people dedicated to teaching kids many of whom are disruptive and don't want to learn much. I taught high school for a year long ago. That's a tough job.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Not surprising when you realize that there's not one single public school district in the country where more than 25% of black students are reading and doing math at grade level.

I’m disagreeing with you here.

A bunch of Mississippi public school districts are majority African-American and I suspect several of them have scores well above that mark.

The public school district in the town where I grew up is majority African American and got an A rating last year fueled by mathematics.

The school accountability grades are supposed to be released today but based on the data and story released last month I expect there to be some increased grades by many schools.

Statewide assessment results show student achievement reaches all-time high | The Mississippi Department of Education

www.mdek12.org

https://www.mdek12.org/sites/default/files/Offices/MDE/OEA/OPR/2023/2023_maap_media_files_ela_math_8.14.23.xlsx

 

[Podgy]

I doubt those numbers are accurate. "Proficient" is doing a lot of work and I'm not sure how it's defined. Not even 50% of Asian Americans are doint math at grade level. And test scores have declined since Covid. Here's Harvard economist Roland Fryer on education outcomes in America. He has no need to massage the data. He mentions the stat on black academic underachievement and he runs the largest social science data gathering lab in the world.

 

[Podgy]

From the link you posted, 71% of students are proficient or advanced in US history. Really. So they should all pass the AP history test?
"*New version of U.S. History test implemented."
Check ACT and SAT scores and scores on AP tests.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

You know it’s funny, most of the statesman in the 1700 and 1800s learned at home, had tutors, read wide ranges of literature and were brilliant and extremely well educated.

Being in a cinderblock building does not necessarily expand your mind.

There were no cinder block buildings or k-12 public education, or really any education for people below a certain class. Education is at least available for all in this country. What comes of that is largely on parents.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Here’s the thing: You’re talking grade level. And based on the numbers at the grade levels, African Americans are doing better than you’ve stated.

AP is different as we know and its standards would be more advanced.

Edit to add: I’d love to see more high school students take AP or dual credit courses. It would help better prepare them for college.

 

[Podgy]

Based on the new standards the state uses, maybe. Better to use a nationally recognized standard and I'm going with the studies and data collected by the Harvard prof and the conclusions he's reached based on that data. He's never shied away from arguing his case with other specialists in the field. There's a reason states are dumbing down standards and even lowering math requirements. There's a reason universities are ditching standardized test scores. The reliable data, not the standards MS recently adopted, don't show this amazing achievement. If MS proficient/advanced scores were accurate, there would be no need for affirmative action and equity agendas on college campuses. https://www.latimes.com/california/...erhaul-focuses-on-equity-amid-low-test-scores

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Honestly I doubt that’ll happen with Fryer which is a shame.

He had a very good rep - winning a Clark medal which is a big deal within the Econ community - but his past harassment issues that led him to being suspended also meant that his research lab that focused on education was forced to close.

The question is going to be who’ll take up his mantle.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

There were no cinder block buildings or k-12 public education, or really any education for people below a certain class. Education is at least available for all in this country. What comes of that is largely on parents.

That doesn't mean it's a better option. Read up on Horace Mann (self-taught by the way). He wanted the public schools simply to prepare the lower class and equalize the population. It succeeds in doing that, therefore, it certainly has a role. But if you want your kids to think outside the box, they won't learn that skill in the public schools. Of course, they may end up doing it anyway, but not because of the public school.

 

[mstateglfr]

This is a screenshot of a text conversation from just last night- its our 11th grade kid complaining about what her live web ACT test prep class was reviewing.
Seems pretty on point to this conversation. Its been 25 years since I took the ACT, but if we reviewed 'has vs had', I would be surprised.


Apologies for the image size.

 

[dog12]

I would guess 95% of homeschool kids come from stable 2 parent homes with the resources and parent education level to realize the importance of education. My guess is these are mostly top 10-20% kids if they were left in the public schools.

So I don't put much stock in comparing results of home schooled kids vs the median public school students. Probably better to compare them to private school kids as that was the likely other choice for the parents. Not opposed to it, but I would never consider it myself... I just always live in good public school districts.



Hijack-

One of the great unmentioned soft skills learned in America's public schools is that smart, well rounded kids have to learn to thrive amongst a lot of ássholes and idiots... both peers and teachers... just like when they grow up and get a job.

If homeschooling can teach kids how to not only tolerate, but work with and for the idiots... I'm all for it. Public school prepares them well for that inevitable life hurdle.

Truth. The idiots are everywhere and cannot be completely avoided.

All of us must learn how to navigate our way through and around them.

 

[dog12]

Lot of generalizations being thrown around in this thread.

My kids went to public school until public school wasn't an option (oldest was in 5th). It was a great one (Madison) and they would have probably stayed in public schools had we stayed there.

75% of my kids homeschool was normal online classes or even dual enrollment at a MS CC. The biggest difference is, we got to research the courses and read reviews and decide for ourselves if they were the right classes. One of my kids (dyslexic) struggled in math until we found the "way he learned" then found a course that taught that way. This isn't as easy in public or private schools. They've been able to study things that interested them because choices are unlimited online (most can be found free).

Socializing doesn't have to happen in school, it can happen anywhere. Sports doesn't have to happen in school, it can happen anywhere. All of my kids are musicians, 2 will have their black belts before graduating and regularly compete in tournaments. They are all scuba divers (did you know that counts as PE and a lot more fun than dodgeball, as does Taekwando). They're all fluent in a 2nd language.

Oh, and they can complete all their work in about 4 hours a day and finish their school year in about 6 months if they want to.

It ALL boils down to the parents to raise their children. Public school kids with good parents can be fine, just like private school kids with ****** parents can turn out badly. Some homeschool parents homeschool because they are crazy, others because they want more influence on what their kids are taught. Ours was out of necessity but I'm glad we had to go that route.

Homeschooling your children was a necessity? Public school was not an option?

What happened? Did you move into an area with horrible public schools?

 

[mstateglfr]

You know it’s funny, most of the statesman in the 1700 and 1800s learned at home, had tutors, read wide ranges of literature and were brilliant and extremely well educated.

Being in a cinderblock building does not necessarily expand your mind.

What a completely worthless point. You think that pointing out that how elites from 250+ years ago were educated is at all applicable now? That just shows how few were even afforded access to a formal education back then.
No surprise- the limited % that had the money and opportunity to gain an education were the ones that were well educated.

Are these the same brilliant people that viewed black people and other slaves as physical property? Are these the same brilliant people that wouldnt allow women to participate in the democratic process of voting for who would represent them in elected positions at the state and federal levels? Are these the same brilliant people that allowed states to only let land owners vote?

Perhaps a public education where all those statesmen were in classes with females and people of varying cultures and ethnicities would have led the statesmen to set this country up differently at the start.

 

[mstateglfr]

Public education is paid for by the government, therefore it's government education. There's a clear agenda there - prepare kids for the workforce, i.e. be the engine. That means, just like George Carlin said - they need to be just smart enough to do the paperwork and run the machines, but dumb enough to believe all the other bullshlt fed to them, to keep them in line. So at the end of the day, while I'm not a hater and saying you can't do well at the public school, there is not a whole lot of innovation going on there.

I love me some Carlin more than most, but just because the guy said something doesnt mean it was correct. He told jokes.

I am not aware of a single school, public or private, whose agenda is to educate kids to a level that will keep them in line.
Preparing kids for the workforce is part of public education, but it is hardly the only reason for public education. Public education teaches children basic life skills(checking accounts, sewing, cooking, nutrition, human health, etc etc) and none of that has anything to do with preparing kids for the workforce.

What I really love about your ignorant rant here is that so many who dont support public education in its current form are ones that want to increase trade education...which is literally preparing kids for the workforce.

 

[Dawghouse]

What happened? Did you move into an area with horrible public schools?

Live in another country.

 

[mstateglfr]

But the entire nature and essence of homeschooling is independent - figuring things out on your own.

Do you really think that homeschooling is some free flow process? If it is successful, it is highly planned out and the teacher fully understands the material prior to introducing and teaching it.
It now typically mixes online classes(so not actually home schooled) with curated self paced materials, especially as kids age and their classes become more difficult for a parent to competently teach.

My school district has a fully online school for 6th thru 12th graders. Kids from anywhere in the state can request their enrollment funding come to this district and they then enroll into this district virtually. It is a truly virtual/online education platform, which means it is highly adjusted from how material is presented and learned in person. Kids that are dealing with long term health issues, kids that travel year round for athletics, kids that have debilitating anxiety, etc etc all enroll into the school.
This isnt 'homeschooling', even if the kid is learning while they are at home. And kids that learn at home from some online private school their parents chose off a google review also arent really being homeschooled. They are using established curriculum that was created by a for profit company and often times partially administered by educators. Yeah, the kid is at home, but that isnt homeschooling.


If a kid is sitting at a table and their parent is trying to figure out a middle school science lesson on cellular development in the moment(figuring things out on your own, as you say), that kid is 17ed moving forward. That kid is even more 17ed if they are the ones that are actually having to figure things out on their own.
Figuring things out on your own is not how homeschooling should work.

 

[GloryDawg]

My school district has a fully online school for 6th thru 12th graders. Kids from anywhere in the state can request their enrollment funding come to this district and they then enroll into this district virtually.

Sounds like school choice.

 

[mstateglfr]

Reducing independent thought is actually what is happening in public schools and universities. The younger generation can not think critically or think for themselves. it is politically correct group think. Individualism and independent thinking is discouraged.

At what point in time was independent thought encouraged in public or private schools?
My dad, father in law, and mother in law all attended private schools in 3 different states. My mom attended public in a 4th state. None have ever said they were encouraged to think independently. In fact, all have told stories of being discouraged and quite literally hit for showing independent thinking. They all learned thru group repetition(not independent) too.

Where was this independent thought valued and when?

 

[Maroon Eagle]

At what point in time was independent thought encouraged in public or private schools?
My dad, father in law, and mother in law all attended private schools in 3 different states. My mom attended public in a 4th state. None have ever said they were encouraged to think independently. In fact, all have told stories of being discouraged and quite literally hit for showing independent thinking. They all learned thru group repetition(not independent) too.

Where was this independent thought valued and when?

Exactly.

Folks are really talking about wanting Dependent Thinking.

 

[Boom Boom]

One of my first classes at State decades ago was Reading for Thinking or something like that, required for Engineers for some reason. The first day we reviewed how to use a comma, homework of convert 2 sentences to one using a comma and "and". 50 times. I dropped it the next day and was embarrassed for everyone involved.

This is a screenshot of a text conversation from just last night- its our 11th grade kid complaining about what her live web ACT test prep class was reviewing.
Seems pretty on point to this conversation. Its been 25 years since I took the ACT, but if we reviewed 'has vs had', I would be surprised.


Apologies for the image size.

View attachment 413600

 

[horshack.sixpack]

That doesn't mean it's a better option. Read up on Horace Mann (self-taught by the way). He wanted the public schools simply to prepare the lower class and equalize the population. It succeeds in doing that, therefore, it certainly has a role. But if you want your kids to think outside the box, they won't learn that skill in the public schools. Of course, they may end up doing it anything, but not because of the public school.

I don't think that you are arguing that we were better off in the 1700-1800's when education was just for the elite?

 

[horshack.sixpack]

At what point in time was independent thought encouraged in public or private schools?
My dad, father in law, and mother in law all attended private schools in 3 different states. My mom attended public in a 4th state. None have ever said they were encouraged to think independently. In fact, all have told stories of being discouraged and quite literally hit for showing independent thinking. They all learned thru group repetition(not independent) too.

Where was this independent thought valued and when?

Probably back when America was "great".***

 

[Dawgg]

More STEM and trade schools, less colleges and training for factories.

You mention more trade schools and less training for factories... What is the difference in teaching somebody to weld for, I dunno, an oil exploration company vs teaching them to weld for a job on an assembly line or as maintenance in a factory?

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

... ones that want to increase trade education...which is literally preparing kids for the workforce.

Not diving too deep into the rest of it, because I believe the whole argument is silly on the macro level. Home/private/public schooling is going to be on a kid by kid and school by school basis. My kids go to an awesome public school that imagine most homeschoolers on this board would be glad to let their kids attend, but when I lived in Dallas we had to move before the kids started school or shell out $20 grand a kid for private school a year since homeschooling wasn't an option. There can be two right answers on this one...

---

But the recent push to teaching kids trades is fascinating, if not down ignorant in many cases. It's very NMKBY (Not my kid, but yours.) Everyone I personally know that brings it up will say other people's kids that "aren't college material" should go into trades. Of course, their kids are always college material. The people I know who don't say it... All my friends that work in trades. As we drag into our mid 40's and older, it's kicking their àsses. I was trade adjacent for years and spent significant time as project manager on jobsites and even the white collar portion of construction can be a young man's game.

I have said it before... The idea that you are going to go to trade school for plumbing, come out and work for a few years, and then start a successful plumbing company where you sit back in the office is a pipe dream, pun intended. It's extremely difficult, competitive, and has a higher failure rate than starting a restaurant. 70% of new HVAC companies fail in the first year. Most lucky survivors are out in the field themselves with a helper or something, making good money, but a small outfit. The big, multi-million dollar trade companies that have loads of employees and a white collar owner know whole lot more about marketing/lead generation than the actual trade they practice. If you know a plumber or HVAC person that successfully built their business from scratch, ask them about how they did it and what it took, you'll probably find out that they're all some bad mother17ers.

So if you work in the trades and you have a kid that is cut out for it and know what they are getting into, by all means we need more skilled craftsmen in this country. But it's an extremely hard life as we age and you better have an exit strategy for 20 years after the career starts in case your body starts to break down.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

The people I know who don't say it... All my friends that work in trades. As we drag into our mid 40's and older, it's kicking their àsses. I was trade adjacent for years and spent significant time as project manager on jobsites and even the white collar portion of construction can be a young man's game.

…

So if you work in the trades and you have a kid that is cut out for it and know what they are getting into, by all means we need more skilled craftsmen in this country. But it's an extremely hard life as we age and you better have an exit strategy for 20 years after the career starts in case your body starts to break down.

And your body WILL break down.

There ain’t many old tradesmen and handymen.

I’ve mentioned that the person who was my previous handyman died a couple years ago when he was 62.

People have to think beyond this.

Who knew that simple answers aren’t the best ways to address complex issues? **

 

[stateu1]

And your body WILL break down.

There ain’t many old tradesmen and handymen.

I’ve mentioned that the person who was my previous handyman died a couple years ago when he was 62.

People have to think beyond this.

Who knew that simple answers aren’t the best ways to address complex issues? **

Yeah, but a lot of that has to do with the typical lifestyle of these folks.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Yeah, but a lot of that has to do with the typical lifestyle of these folks.

Which is hard work.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

If homeschooling can teach kids how to not only tolerate, but work with and for the idiots... I'm all for it. Public school prepares them well for that inevitable life hurdle.

Don't know if I fully agree here. I missed this comment earlier. I've heard this all my life, but the dealings with idiots during my years of public school growing up GREATLY outnumber my dealings since graduating. Like exponentially.

ETA: But I do actively try and avoid them and keep my mouth shut (especially at airports, big public events, big box store parking lots, etc. where you see these Youtube/Facebook fights all the time).

 

[OG Goat Holder]

What I really love about your ignorant rant here is that so many who dont support public education in its current form are ones that want to increase trade education...which is literally preparing kids for the workforce.

I'm not ignorant in the least. I obviously see more angles of this than you do. Sounds like you are the ignorant one, just going by the definition.

I don't have that many opinions on trade education, so you're reaching.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

If a kid is sitting at a table and their parent is trying to figure out a middle school science lesson on cellular development in the moment(figuring things out on your own, as you say), that kid is 17ed moving forward. That kid is even more 17ed if they are the ones that are actually having to figure things out on their own.
Figuring things out on your own is not how homeschooling should work.

Disagree. It's a very valuable skill. Maybe one of the most valuable.

At what point in time was independent thought encouraged in public or private schools?
My dad, father in law, and mother in law all attended private schools in 3 different states. My mom attended public in a 4th state. None have ever said they were encouraged to think independently. In fact, all have told stories of being discouraged and quite literally hit for showing independent thinking. They all learned thru group repetition(not independent) too.

Where was this independent thought valued and when?

It's valued by smart people. How can this be debatable? You want people to be sheep?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I don't think that you are arguing that we were better off in the 1700-1800's when education was just for the elite?

Has nothing to do with that. But I certainly don't believe in leaving above average kids behind and subjecting them to the same things you subject the below average ones. You're just trying to paint me into some weird corner so you can throw woke stuff at me. Not gonna work.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

But the recent push to teaching kids trades is fascinating, if not down ignorant in many cases. It's very NMKBY (Not my kid, but yours.) Everyone I personally know that brings it up will say other people's kids that "aren't college material" should go into trades.

I agree with this general viewpoint. And that's sort of what Horace Mann did.

Bottom line, you said this earlier, it's on a case by case basis. The big rift for me is the criticism that homeschoolers and private schoolers get when trying to do things better or at minimum, differently. But that's expected, I suppose.