They were suspended over guns!

bayrooster

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Which one?
Not Europa.
 

18IsTheMan

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The article linked in the OP contains new details about the incident overall.

Pretty stupid overall. On the one hand, they deserve what they get, but it would be unfortunate if something like this ruins their football careers. They should not have done what they did, but they weren’t pointing the gun at people or anything like that.
 

18IsTheMan

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In summary: Housing officials spotted an AR-15 in Rose's room during a routine check and notified police. When police arrived, Rose threw the gun out of the window before answering the door. Rhames and Upshaw retrieved the gun, with Rhames hiding it in his pants. They got in Upshaw's car and left school property with the gun. Rhame's is 18 and adult, Upshaw is a miinor, so I guess 17.

All around just stupid. Can't happen. They should, of course, get whatever the standard penalty is. But they're young and you hope there's a way this can become a learning opportunity without having to destroy their football careers.

I don't know if there's a way for them to do their time, pay their debt, and rejoin the team in the fall. While there needs to be a fair penalty, I don't think this is a "your football career is over" offense.
 

Lurker123

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I don't think this is a "your football career is over" offense.

The big question is if this is a type of offense that forces the continuation of their career at another school.

Many kids get second chances, but it's at a different school.

The next question is what we would be saying I'd this was georgia or Florida players? Or (gasp) clemson players?
 

18IsTheMan

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The big question is if this is a type of offense that forces the continuation of their career at another school.

Many kids get second chances, but it's at a different school.

The next question is what we would be saying I'd this was georgia or Florida players? Or (gasp) clemson players?

I typically try to be objective, which is why I'm not on the "Incarcerate Brandon Miller" bandwagon. But, yes, many in our fan base would be calling for these guys to be banned from the game of football forever if they played at another SEC program.

Did they break rules? Absolutely. Should they be punished? Absolutely. The questions are: What is the appropriate punishment? Can they be punished appropriately and still be allowed to play football here? If they deserve a second chance at another school, why not a second chance here?

The key for me here is that they weren't doing anything with the gun(s). It was in his room. He wasn't carrying it around campus. The gun was never pointed at anyone. They weren't shooting the gun. We don't even know if it was loaded. I am NOT defending him having the gun on campus, but there are degrees of wrong.

Would an appropriate punishment be a 6-game suspension? I think that kind of suspension shows it was taken very seriously. It's not a token 1-game suspension for a game against an FCS opponent. 6-games is a pretty stiff penalty but still allows them to remain part of the program and gives them the chance to get back on track. It's an appropriate balance of justice and mercy.
 
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92Pony

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The big question is if this is a type of offense that forces the continuation of their career at another school.

Many kids get second chances, but it's at a different school.

The next question is what we would be saying I'd this was georgia or Florida players? Or (gasp) clemson players?
My cynical take on those points;

We won't allow them back. They'll QUICKLY catch on somewhere else and have great careers, possibly being a problem for us in competition.

They would most likely continue on if it were at UGA, UF, and MOST DEFINITELY clemson. In the upstate, it would have joined so many other issues under that giant rug they have up thar.
 

rkierstead8

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The big question is if this is a type of offense that forces the continuation of their career at another school.

Many kids get second chances, but it's at a different school.

The next question is what we would be saying I'd this was georgia or Florida players? Or (gasp) clemson players?
If it were clempscum, no one would even know it happened!
 

Patriot321

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TN-Gamecock

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C'mon people. They knew this was unacceptable. 1) threw the gun out the window, 2) had a player retrieve the gun and hide in his pant, 3) player gets gun and takes a ride to hide the gun.

Universities and Colleges should be safe havens from this type of hoodlum behavior. These players are mixed in with students whose parents send them to get an education, have the collegiate experience, and socialize.

I say let them transfer and be someone else's problem. Our recruiting is on the upswing anyway.
 

Surfcock

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SC Firearm law : South Carolina Code Section 16-23-420

The Law is the Law.

We always hear people say there are two separate justice systems in this country. It appears since these three have Football attached to the end of their names they should be looked at differently. They have a FB career ahead of them.

Should a full ride engineering student that had the chance of designing a new energy system via the university, also get a pass? Regular B or C avg student no one knows anything about?

I’m a USAF vet. Weapons in the dorms were a NO PASS issue. Period

All due processes and judicial freedoms should be provided to these young men. The ruling of the court is the ruling of the court.

I read on here all the time we are better than CU, UGA, UF ….etc. Cut the cord and let’s move on.
 

18IsTheMan

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SC Firearm law : South Carolina Code Section 16-23-420

The Law is the Law.

We always hear people say there are two separate justice systems in this country. It appears since these three have Football attached to the end of their names they should be looked at differently. They have a FB career ahead of them.

Should a full ride engineering student that had the chance of designing a new energy system via the university, also get a pass? Regular B or C avg student no one knows anything about?

I’m a USAF vet. Weapons in the dorms were a NO PASS issue. Period

All due processes and judicial freedoms should be provided to these young men. The ruling of the court is the ruling of the court.

I read on here all the time we are better than CU, UGA, UF ….etc. Cut the cord and let’s move on.
Per the link provided, possessing a gun on school property is punishable by a fine not to exceed $1,000 or up to 5 years in prison, or both.

Given the nature of the infraction, it's doubtful these kids are going to prison for 5 years. If the law is upheld and they are charged $1,000, then it's legally settled, right?

Does the school mandate expulsion with no opportunity to ever become a student again?
 
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USCBatgirl21

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I don't know if there's a way for them to do their time, pay their debt, and rejoin the team in the fall. While there needs to be a fair penalty, I don't think this is a "your football career is over" offense.
At this point, their status as students at USC is in question. This is completely out of the football office's hands.
 
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18IsTheMan

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At this point, their status as students at USC is over. This is completely out of the football office's hands.

Yes. Once their legal situation is settled, is there reason they cannot be re-admitted as students? I don't have access to a University rule book, so I don't know if this infraction carries a penalty of never being able to be a USC student ever again.
 

USCBatgirl21

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Per the link provided, possessing a gun on school property is punishable by a fine not to exceed $1,000 or up to 5 years in prison, or both.

Given the nature of the infraction, it's doubtful these kids are going to prison for 5 years. If the law is upheld and they are charged $1,000, then it's legally settled, right?

Does the school mandate expulsion with no opportunity to ever become a student again?
I think it depends on the type of offense, and depending on the offense, they may not make it easy to re-enroll.
 

USCBatgirl21

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Yes. Once their legal situation is settled, is there reason they cannot be re-admitted as students? I don't have access to a University rule book, so I don't know if this infraction carries a penalty of never being able to be a USC student ever again.
As I replied to your other post, I believe it depends on the offense.
 

18IsTheMan

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Aside from the legal aspect, they should face whatever penalty the University would levy against a non-athlete for an equal offense. If they don't allow re-admission to the University to any students guilty of an equal infraction, so be it.

Obviously, their re-admission to the University would hinge on whether or not Beamer wants them back on the team. I don't think the nature of this offense (based on the limited info we have) absolutely necessitates permanent dismissal from the team. I would be satisfied with re-admission and a 6-8 game suspension, though a suspension may not mean much for true freshman who may not have played much anyway. Beamer may very well decide it's not worth risking upsetting the culture he's building, though he could probably vet them and their families and former coaches thoroughly and try to discern if it really was just an incredibly stupid thing they did and they seemed to learn a lesson, or if they lack remorse. If they seem genuinely remorseful and the incident is out of character based on what their families and coaches say, I'd be inclined to offer a second opportunity.
 

Surfcock

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Per the link provided, possessing a gun on school property is punishable by a fine not to exceed $1,000 or up to 5 years in prison, or both.

Given the nature of the infraction, it's doubtful these kids are going to prison for 5 years. If the law is upheld and they are charged $1,000, then it's legally settled, right?

Does the school mandate expulsion with no opportunity to ever become a student again?

With all of the gun issues in the country, followed by how could this have happened, next question- why can’t this be stopped

This past season 3 UVA players were killed

These MEN not kids, they had an AR in the dorms. Luckily it was reported and nothing bad happened.

You want to have them back at USC?

I remember reading the story about the CU former player, who was off campus but he was robbed a lot of $$$ and firearms were stolen….this board was blasting CU!!!!

The fixer at UGA over the dui wreck and killing. Several hinted at what else could be covered up by the fixer. UF’s firearm issues that were covered up under Meyer. This board again blasted that program

So to answer your question, is expulsion ok by THIS school? Yes - actions have penalties. Firearms are out of bounds no going back period!!!

If these MEN, can find a university willing to give them a second chance, they should take it and move on. As for USC, I feel there should be a separation these players have broken the trust and rules of the University
 

Blues man

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In my day, we openly carried our shotguns and rifles to high school. Nothing ever happened other than some afternoon hunting.
... when administrators didnt have to refer to a handbook before dishing out punishment and actually made decisions on their own.

Funny how since its inception, the Dept of Education at the federal level has done nothing to improve education.
 
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18IsTheMan

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With all of the gun issues in the country, followed by how could this have happened, next question- why can’t this be stopped

This past season 3 UVA players were killed

These MEN not kids, they had an AR in the dorms. Luckily it was reported and nothing bad happened.

You want to have them back at USC?

I remember reading the story about the CU former player, who was off campus but he was robbed a lot of $$$ and firearms were stolen….this board was blasting CU!!!!

The fixer at UGA over the dui wreck and killing. Several hinted at what else could be covered up by the fixer. UF’s firearm issues that were covered up under Meyer. This board again blasted that program

So to answer your question, is expulsion ok by THIS school? Yes - actions have penalties. Firearms are out of bounds no going back period!!!

If these MEN, can find a university willing to give them a second chance, they should take it and move on. As for USC, I feel there should be a separation these players have broken the trust and rules of the University

What do University regulations stipulate for such an offense? Do they stipulate that a student guilty of such an offense may never be re-admitted to the University? All I want to know is that the University regulations are. They should be treated accordingly.
 

Benjdan

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What if Rhames was planning to take Rose and Upshaw hog hunting in Sumter but needed somewhere safe to keep the gun? Maybe they had just purchased it in anticipation of the upcoming weekend, keeping it in a room is much more secure than a vehicle. Just saying… 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
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18IsTheMan

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What if Rhames was planning to take Rose and Upshaw hog hunting in Sumter but needed somewhere safe to keep the gun? Maybe they had just purchased it in anticipation of the upcoming weekend, keeping it in a room is much more secure than a vehicle. Just saying… 🤷🏻‍♂️

These are details I'm sure that are being investigated. There's still zero excuse at all for having the gun on campus. Perhaps, as you say, they purchased the gun for some ordinary reason and were just keeping it in the room until they could store it somewhere off-campus. Maybe they thought they thought they could by with for a few days. Even if this were true, it doesn't excuse it, but the motive should impact the degree of punishment. I would also want to know if they had any ammo for the gun on hand.

I think it's worthwhile finding out if these were teenagers who did an incredibly dumb thing or if it's something much worse than that.
 

SeaMountain

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With all of the gun issues in the country, followed by how could this have happened, next question- why can’t this be stopped

This past season 3 UVA players were killed

These MEN not kids, they had an AR in the dorms. Luckily it was reported and nothing bad happened.

You want to have them back at USC?

I remember reading the story about the CU former player, who was off campus but he was robbed a lot of $$$ and firearms were stolen….this board was blasting CU!!!!

The fixer at UGA over the dui wreck and killing. Several hinted at what else could be covered up by the fixer. UF’s firearm issues that were covered up under Meyer. This board again blasted that program

So to answer your question, is expulsion ok by THIS school? Yes - actions have penalties. Firearms are out of bounds no going back period!!!

If these MEN, can find a university willing to give them a second chance, they should take it and move on. As for USC, I feel there should be a separation these players have broken the trust and rules of the University
Biden is going to fix it with EOs surpassing the Supreme Court taking your rights away. Don't worry he's looking out for us.
 
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USCBatgirl21

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These are details I'm sure that are being investigated. There's still zero excuse at all for having the gun on campus. Perhaps, as you say, they purchased the gun for some ordinary reason and were just keeping it in the room until they could store it somewhere off-campus. Maybe they thought they thought they could by with for a few days. Even if this were true, it doesn't excuse it, but the motive should impact the degree of punishment. I would also want to know if they had any ammo for the gun on hand.

I think it's worthwhile finding out if these were teenagers who did an incredibly dumb thing or if it's something much worse than that.
I don't think you can do even that with our policy. Obviously the bigger issue is throwing it out the window and trying to hide it. IMO that tells me they knew they shouldn't have it, i.e. they knew better.
 

Surfcock

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Aside from the legal aspect, they should face whatever penalty the University would levy against a non-athlete for an equal offense. If they don't allow re-admission to the University to any students guilty of an equal infraction, so be it.

Obviously, their re-admission to the University would hinge on whether or not Beamer wants them back on the team. I don't think the nature of this offense (based on the limited info we have) absolutely necessitates permanent dismissal from the team. I would be satisfied with re-admission and a 6-8 game suspension, though a suspension may not mean much for true freshman who may not have played much anyway. Beamer may very well decide it's not worth risking upsetting the culture he's building, though he could probably vet them and their families and former coaches thoroughly and try to discern if it really was just an incredibly stupid thing they did and they seemed to learn a lesson, or if they lack remorse. If they seem genuinely remorseful and the incident is out of character based on what their families and coaches say, I'd be inclined to offer a second opportunity.

From the Student Handbook that is online:

Here are the Weapons, dropping items out of windows, false statements defined in the Handbook. These were the charges listed by the police in the news report

It also states the university could make their finding before or after the off campus authorities. The Handbook does not list the punishments for these offenses



D. Weapons
Prohibited behaviors include unauthorized possession of weapons including firearms or weapons of any kind including but not limited to knives, slingshots, metal knuckles, razors, paintball guns, BB guns, and air pistols; even if permitted by law. Authorization for possession of a firearm on campus or in campus controlled facilities is only available from the university president or designee.



F. Disruptive Activity Prohibited behaviors include:
1. Interfering with or disrupting the normal activity and operations of the university or its educational mission, programs, or events
2. Conduct that causes or provokes a disturbance that disrupts the academic pursuits of others
3. Behavior in a classroom or instructional program that interferes with the instructor or presenter's ability to conduct the class or program, or the ability of others to profit from the class or program
4. Intentional obstruction which unreasonably interferes with freedom of movement (including but not limited to pedestrian or vehicular obstruction)
5. Throwing or dropping objects or substances out of buildings.
6. Non-compliance with reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions on expression.
7. Failure to leave immediately when asked to disperse by university or law enforcement officials.

I. Compliance with General Laws and Arrests
1. Violations of any federal, state, or local laws may be subject to disciplinary action. A disciplinary action imposed by the University may precede and/or be in addition to any penalty imposed by an off-campus authority.
2. Arrests by law enforcement agencies outside of USC’s Division of Law Enforcement and Safety must be reported by the student to the Office of Student Conduct within 72 hours of arrest.
J. Dishonesty and Theft
Prohibited behaviors include:
1. Theft of any kind, including seizing, receiving, or concealing property with knowledge that it has been stolen

2. Sale, possession, or misappropriation of any property or services without the owner's permission
3. The sale of a textbook by any student who does not own the book
4. Dishonest or fraudulent behavior in any oral or written transaction with the
university
5. Dishonesty or misrepresenting the truth before a hearing of the University, or
furnishing false information or withholding information to any university official
which interferes with university processes or procedures
6. Forgery, alteration, or misuse of any document, record, or officially issued
identification information from University processes and/or officials
K. Misuse of Identification or University Resources
 

Surfcock

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From the Student Handbook that is online:

Here are the Weapons, dropping items out of windows, false statements defined in the Handbook. These were the charges listed by the police in the news report

It also states the university could make their finding before or after the off campus authorities. The Handbook does not list the punishments for these offenses



D. Weapons
Prohibited behaviors include unauthorized possession of weapons including firearms or weapons of any kind including but not limited to knives, slingshots, metal knuckles, razors, paintball guns, BB guns, and air pistols; even if permitted by law. Authorization for possession of a firearm on campus or in campus controlled facilities is only available from the university president or designee.



F. Disruptive Activity Prohibited behaviors include:
1. Interfering with or disrupting the normal activity and operations of the university or its educational mission, programs, or events
2. Conduct that causes or provokes a disturbance that disrupts the academic pursuits of others
3. Behavior in a classroom or instructional program that interferes with the instructor or presenter's ability to conduct the class or program, or the ability of others to profit from the class or program
4. Intentional obstruction which unreasonably interferes with freedom of movement (including but not limited to pedestrian or vehicular obstruction)
5. Throwing or dropping objects or substances out of buildings.
6. Non-compliance with reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions on expression.
7. Failure to leave immediately when asked to disperse by university or law enforcement officials.

I. Compliance with General Laws and Arrests
1. Violations of any federal, state, or local laws may be subject to disciplinary action. A disciplinary action imposed by the University may precede and/or be in addition to any penalty imposed by an off-campus authority.
2. Arrests by law enforcement agencies outside of USC’s Division of Law Enforcement and Safety must be reported by the student to the Office of Student Conduct within 72 hours of arrest.
J. Dishonesty and Theft
Prohibited behaviors include:
1. Theft of any kind, including seizing, receiving, or concealing property with knowledge that it has been stolen

2. Sale, possession, or misappropriation of any property or services without the owner's permission
3. The sale of a textbook by any student who does not own the book
4. Dishonest or fraudulent behavior in any oral or written transaction with the
university
5. Dishonesty or misrepresenting the truth before a hearing of the University, or
furnishing false information or withholding information to any university official
which interferes with university processes or procedures
6. Forgery, alteration, or misuse of any document, record, or officially issued
identification information from University processes and/or officials
K. Misuse of Identification or University Resources

Judgement:


A. Scope
1. The university may take disciplinary action for a violation of the Student Code of Conduct when the offense takes place on university premises or at university sponsored, endorsed, supported or related events which occur off campus. University action will also occur when an offense which occurs off campus may adversely affect the university community, its policies or procedures, or which affect the university's pursuit of its mission.
2. When there is an allegation that a student has committed an offense that is also a crime, a student can be charged both by the criminal justice system and the student conduct system. Disciplinary action at the university will normally proceed independently of pending criminal charges, including when charges involving the same incident have been dismissed by the criminal justice system.
B. Jurisdiction
1. Definition of a student - For the purpose of this policy a student is defined as a person who is admitted, enrolled or registered for study at the University of South Carolina for any academic period; and those who attend post-secondary
STAF 6.26
Division of Student Affairs and Academic Support Student Code of Conduct
June 1, 1992
March 4, 2014
Columbia Campus Columbia Campus Dennis A. Pruitt Student Conduct

educational institutions other than the University of South Carolina and who reside in a USC residence facility. Persons who are not officially enrolled for a particular term but who have a continuing student relationship with, or an educational interest in, the University of South Carolina are considered students. A person shall also be considered a student during any period while the student is under suspension from the institution or when the student is attending or participating in any activity preparatory to the beginning of school including, but not limited to, fraternity or sorority rush, orientation, placement testing, and residence hall check-in.
2. Definition of student organization - A student organization is any group, consisting of at least 70% USC Columbia students who desire to come together to support a particular view, explore common interests or accomplish identified tasks. Additional standards of this definition can be found at http://www.sc.edu/policies/staf310.pdf
Responsibility for good conduct rests with students as individuals, for both themselves and their guests. Student organizations have similar responsibility for maintaining good conduct among their members and guests and at activities they sponsor. All members of the university community are expected to use reasonable judgment in their daily campus life and to show due concern for the welfare and rights of others.
 

Surfcock

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Judgement:


A. Scope
1. The university may take disciplinary action for a violation of the Student Code of Conduct when the offense takes place on university premises or at university sponsored, endorsed, supported or related events which occur off campus. University action will also occur when an offense which occurs off campus may adversely affect the university community, its policies or procedures, or which affect the university's pursuit of its mission.
2. When there is an allegation that a student has committed an offense that is also a crime, a student can be charged both by the criminal justice system and the student conduct system. Disciplinary action at the university will normally proceed independently of pending criminal charges, including when charges involving the same incident have been dismissed by the criminal justice system.
B. Jurisdiction
1. Definition of a student - For the purpose of this policy a student is defined as a person who is admitted, enrolled or registered for study at the University of South Carolina for any academic period; and those who attend post-secondary
STAF 6.26
Division of Student Affairs and Academic Support Student Code of Conduct
June 1, 1992
March 4, 2014
Columbia Campus Columbia Campus Dennis A. Pruitt Student Conduct

educational institutions other than the University of South Carolina and who reside in a USC residence facility. Persons who are not officially enrolled for a particular term but who have a continuing student relationship with, or an educational interest in, the University of South Carolina are considered students. A person shall also be considered a student during any period while the student is under suspension from the institution or when the student is attending or participating in any activity preparatory to the beginning of school including, but not limited to, fraternity or sorority rush, orientation, placement testing, and residence hall check-in.
2. Definition of student organization - A student organization is any group, consisting of at least 70% USC Columbia students who desire to come together to support a particular view, explore common interests or accomplish identified tasks. Additional standards of this definition can be found at http://www.sc.edu/policies/staf310.pdf
Responsibility for good conduct rests with students as individuals, for both themselves and their guests. Student organizations have similar responsibility for maintaining good conduct among their members and guests and at activities they sponsor. All members of the university community are expected to use reasonable judgment in their daily campus life and to show due concern for the welfare and rights of others.

C. Authority
The Board of Trustees and the president of the university are ultimately responsible for governing the university. The student conduct system is administered by the Division of Student Affairs and Academic Support. The Vice President for Student Affairs and Academic Support, in turn, designates the Office of Student Conduct with administrative authority and responsibility for Student Conduct policies and procedures. This responsibility includes formulating and implementing policies and procedures, in cooperation with other appropriate University bodies, for the consideration of conduct violations and the imposition of sanctions in an efficient, consistent, fair, legal, and educationally meaningful manner. The Office of Student Conduct may further delegate its responsibility to various judicial bodies and administrative staff including the Carolina Judicial Council, University Housing staff, Fraternity and Sorority Life staff, and the Title IX Coordinator.
Student Government as an elected and representative voice of the student body has the right to comment on any proposed changes pertaining to the discipline of students.


II. Procedure
This section establishes the rules and regulations all students and student organizations are expected to follow under the duty and corollary powers inherent in educational institutions.

Institutions protect their educational purposes through the setting of standards of student conduct and scholarship and through the regulation of the use of university facilities. Lack of familiarity with institutional rules is not an excuse for an infraction.
Additional rules and regulations may be promulgated during the year and will be updated to the university’s website upon adoption.