(unconfirmed) Cliff is back

fastlax16

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Not commenting if you friend is right or wrong, but if he really works with the program, he is being very reckless. I'm very close to the program for several reasons and I know James is very strict about information leaking from Lasch. Your friend will be out quickly if he doesn't learn to keep his mouth shut.

they’re not someone who even dotted lines to Franklin if I understand the structure. Their role just puts them into close contact with a good number of players on a constant basis so I’m sure the original source is a player mentioning it in passing during an interaction.
 

donaldfair71

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Nov 8, 2021
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they’re not someone who even dotted lines to Franklin if I understand the structure. Their role just puts them into close contact with a good number of players on a constant basis so I’m sure the original source is a player mentioning it in passing during an interaction.
It makes sense that he comes back (from his perspective, I mean).
 

LionJim

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Oct 12, 2021
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I am not sure that it is a given that "taking lumps" for a year (by, presumably, throwing a freshman out there as the full-time Day 1 starter) would lead to "more serious bang" down the road.
Could be just the opposite - that allowing a kid to acclimate and take on minimal responsibilities early - even an entire freshman season - might lead to greater development and long term return. We can't know that, either way, but I don't think it is a given that trial by fire (which so many NFL and College teams do with highly regarded rookie QBs - like a Sam Danold with the Jets, or Bo Nix at Auburn, as opposed to an Aaron Rodgers at Green Bay, or Kerry Collins at Penn State spending time as an understudy) is the better long-term solution. No way to know for sure, but just putting that out there.
Excellent points. The fact that our backups seem to almost never get game snaps is maybe influencing me. Our lackings in quarterback development are wearing on me. I recall having been history-checked in saying this before but during Paterno’s tenure, in more years than not, a senior quarterback would lead the team to an excellent record. This past year has been a huge, huge disappointment.
 

psupride1997

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Oct 25, 2021
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I’ve had enough Clifford for a lifetime, time to move on. It was a breath of fresh air when CV was in there, the thought of a slogging through another year with 14 is depressing.
 
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PAgeologist

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Oct 19, 2021
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+1. My fear is that Franklin does the same thing and doesn't get any of the backups any valuable playing time. Also if Clifford does come back I don't see CV, Drew or Beau all sticking.
Its a very tricky situation but Im in the "lets move forward with the younger guys camp".
Just my opinion, but here's my thoughts on the ideal situation next year. SC moved on. CV starts but Allar and Pribula both get significant playing time in 4 games each. This of course assumes no injuries. And of course Allar and Pribula both progress through spring and summer to warrant such playing time.

That allows Franklin to hopefully keep all 3 happy at least for the following season. And he has significant time to evaluate each for future playing time. I think it's critical he keeps at least 2 or he keeps getting in high level QBs. Let's face it, the backup is probably going to see playing time with this team. Ready or not.
 

GregPSU

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Have a friend who works with the program in a support function hearing rumblings that he's back. Take it fwiw.
I hope not. He has never been that accurate and doesn't see open receivers. I know, you all are going to say if healthy he is really good. I don't think so but when has he ever been healthy for a year? All the way back to high school he always has been hurt. I have seen enough and do not want Cliff getting all the reps in practice again next year. Veilleux showed a lot of promise plus the two incoming QB's appear to be special. Let's take the best of those 3 and give them the practice reps.
 

PSUFTG

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Just my opinion, but here's my thoughts on the ideal situation next year. SC moved on. CV starts but Allar and Pribula both get significant playing time in 4 games each. This of course assumes no injuries. And of course Allar and Pribula both progress through spring and summer to warrant such playing time.

That allows Franklin to hopefully keep all 3 happy at least for the following season. And he has significant time to evaluate each for future playing time. I think it's critical he keeps at least 2 or he keeps getting in high level QBs. Let's face it, the backup is probably going to see playing time with this team. Ready or not.
I can only imagine the volcanic eruption if Penn State, behind whichever QB is playing, is down in Auburn, up by 14 points and in good shape in the game, and Franklin makes a change in QB- to make sure the other kids get meaningful snaps, a few bad things happen, momentum is lost, and Penn State ends up losing the game.
By the way, that philosophy is what is keeping Michigan from being 12-0 right now. Fortunately, for them, they are likely in the CFP anyway - but that could just have easily, in another year, kept them out.

To paraphrase Herm Edwards - "You play the QB to win the game". And if the Head Coach doesn't know which QB gives the team the best chance to succeed, you have an incompetent head coach.
When a QB is struggling, and you have someone on the bench who you feel could jump start things? Sure, you make a move.
When you are up more than 3 scores after halftime, sure, you clear off the depth charts - but how many quarters of play, out of a full season, is Penn State likely to be in that situation? Last year that would have been three possessions each against Ball State and Villanova, and one possession against Rutgers (and of those 7 possessions, I think the back-up was in at QB for at least five or six of them, include one for Mason Stahl)
 

JVP_Yahweh

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Kinda mixed on his return. Would like to see how the young guys handle a full schedule and not just mop up duty
 

PAgeologist

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I can only imagine the volcanic eruption if Penn State, behind whichever QB is playing, is down in Auburn, up by 14 points and in good shape in the game, and Franklin makes a change in QB- to make sure the other kids get meaningful snaps, a few bad things happen, momentum is lost, and Penn State ends up losing the game.
By the way, that philosophy is what is keeping Michigan from being 12-0 right now. Fortunately, for them, they are likely in the CFP anyway - but that could just have easily, in another year, kept them out.

To paraphrase Herm Edwards - "You play the QB to win the game". And if the Head Coach doesn't know which QB gives the team the best chance to succeed, you have an incompetent head coach.
When a QB is struggling, and you have someone on the bench who you feel could jump start things? Sure, you make a move.
When you are up more than 3 scores after halftime, sure, you clear off the depth charts - but how many quarters of play, out of a full season, is Penn State likely to be in that situation? Last year that would have been three possessions each against Ball State and Villanova, and one possession against Rutgers (and of those 7 possessions, I think the back-up was in at QB for at least five or six of them, include one for Mason Stahl)
Good points. One would hope there were at least a few games when the team was comfortably ahead to play the 2 and 3 QBs, but certainly not a guarantee. And no I don't think Franklin should sub just to sub in a tight game.

It's a tight line with trying to keep the kids happy enough to stick around, getting game experience for backups, and winning games. That's why James gets paid the big $$$.
 

2021torino

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Oct 13, 2021
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Don't do this, Sean. It creates a no win situation for everyone.

OL will still be porous and won't give him much protection which makes It hard to improve his stats next season.

CJF will stick to SC and these younger QBs won't get much representation and be itching to leave. The QB depth will be questionable again in 2023.
 

Mrdibbs

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Oct 12, 2021
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Excellent points. The fact that our backups seem to almost never get game snaps is maybe influencing me. Our lackings in quarterback development are wearing on me. I recall having been history-checked in saying this before but during Paterno’s tenure, in more years than not, a senior quarterback would lead the team to an excellent record. This past year has been a huge, huge disappointment.

I agree, LionJim. In the past, a returning quarterback was nearly a guarantee of a decent/ good team. I anticipated that 2021 would be consistent.

I did not make it to any games to see for myself, but my oldest son was at the Indiana game and he has nothing good to say about Clifford. His beef is that he does not see the field. Open receivers are not seen/targeted. Guess that if my kid sees it, the opposing coaches see it. Watch his eyes.
I don't blame the kid if he wants to play another season. The bruises on his body earn him something. I would hope that Franklin and Yercich would demand his performance match his years at the position.
 

bdgan

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On point 1- agreed.
On point 2- agreed with a (big) caveat. I think its good for the program if Franklin is willing to break with his tendency and Allar actually gets some game action as the course of a game or the season allows.

I like the idea of hedging, depending on how the first 6 games play out. If we are sitting at 3-3 after 6 games with losses to Auburn, OSU and Michigan then its time to let Allar see the field quite a bit, maybe turn over the reigns, against the weaker back half of the schedule. If we are 5-1 or 4-2 with the CFP or Division still within reach you ride with Clifford. If we are 3-3 and Clifford take 95% of the snaps over the final 6 games then 2021 is a waste and we've set ourselves back in 2022.
Clifford should go. Maybe he'll get a free agent deal or play in the CFL.

How many times have we heard that it's nearly impossible to get more than 2 QBs ready to play? If Clifford returns and is #1 who gets the time as #2? Veilleux deserves consideration based on his on field performance. Allar deserves consideration based upon his high rankings. Even Pribula deserves consideration. He didn't play against the toughest competition but he completed 70% of his passes, 250 yds per game, 33 TD, 6 INT.

Didn't Franklin suggest that he wasn't able to determine that Veilleux was better than Roberson? How's he going to give 4 QBs sufficient reps to determine who's best?
 

PSUFTG

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Good points. One would hope there were at least a few games when the team was comfortably ahead to play the 2 and 3 QBs, but certainly not a guarantee. And no I don't think Franklin should sub just to sub in a tight game.

It's a tight line with trying to keep the kids happy enough to stick around, getting game experience for backups, and winning games. That's why James gets paid the big $$$.
I agree. For QBs, far more than any other position (because you just can't simulate all the things QBs need to be able to do without getting real reps with the bullets flying), that line between getting experience - vs making sure you give your best chance to win the game - can sometimes be tough. Especially in a year like last year, where you have a veteran QB who needs some "rehabilitation" himself, and a new OC breaking in his system, and you also want that veteran QB to get maximum snaps.
Not a simple solution out there, I don't think.
 

Bosco2

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Oct 25, 2021
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Was he a full time starter all four years? Didn't he battle it out with Senneca for a year or two? Wasn't Senneca listed ahead of him for a bit? SC didn't start every game but he was the listed starter I believe.
Sacca only became a starter as a freshman after all of the QBs in front of him got hurt. Tom Bill was the starter on opening day.
 
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Tin man

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If I only have two choices to choose from.
1- having Clifford return for his 6th year or
2- pull a QB with 1 year of eligibility from the portal.
I would choose Clifford because he already knows the system, personnel and surroundings at PSU.
If I had a third choice of letting Clifford leave and go with the 4 QB’s we have next year with the best man starts. I would choose #3.
 
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JakkL

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I'd welcome him back. The pre-injury Clifford was playing very well. I dont think many nfl teams would bother to work him out after this season. I could easily see him having a good year and getting drafted in 23.
 
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donaldfair71

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I hope not. He has never been that accurate and doesn't see open receivers. I know, you all are going to say if healthy he is really good. I don't think so but when has he ever been healthy for a year? All the way back to high school he always has been hurt. I have seen enough and do not want Cliff getting all the reps in practice again next year. Veilleux showed a lot of promise plus the two incoming QB's appear to be special. Let's take the best of those 3 and give them the practice reps.
Pretty much where I’m at.
 

donaldfair71

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If I only have two choices to choose from.
1- having Clifford return for his 6th year or
2- pull a QB with 1 year of eligibility from the portal.
I would choose Clifford because he already knows the system, personnel and surroundings at PSU.
If I had a third choice of letting Clifford leave and go with the 4 QB’s we have next year with the best man starts. I would choose #3.
Unless the #2 in your scenario is something that can be a big difference maker (think Rattler, McCord, Miller), I concur.
In any event, #1 is my last choice.
 

Tin man

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Unless the #2 in your scenario is something that can be a big difference maker (think Rattler, McCord, Miller), I concur.
In any event, #1 is my last choice.
I think if the QB that comes in has more than 1 year left of eligibility left, you’ll lose one or maybe both of our 2022 QB’s committed.
 

Connorpozlee

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He may well be Dr. Clifford by time he leaves the program.
I have no problem with him returning. Let one of the younger guys take the job from him. Competition is good.
 

psu31trap

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A healthy Sean Clifford is an asset for the football program. Give SC a decent running game, 2.5 legit targets at WR and 4 seconds in the pocket and he’ll take you to a Rose Bowl.
 

VaDave4PSU

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I’d like to hear the reasoning how last year was better than this year.

Cliff definitely improved over his '20 performance.

Our conference record remained the same, but we were competitive and capable of winning every game this year. You can't say the same for our '20 losses.

Prior to his injury, Clifford was getting this offense down. The Iowa 18 minutes wasn't a fluke, and that included 2 TERRIBLE throws. Without the threat of Clifford running, teams tee'd off on us. It is what it is.
 

donaldfair71

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I think if the QB that comes in has more than 1 year left of eligibility left, you’ll lose one or maybe both of our 2022 QB’s committed.
Yep, but here’s how I look at it:

You bring someone in and he’s *that* guy, you take have him as long as he can stay. If he has two years so be it, roll with him and those guys can leave. Think Justin Fields.
If he’s *not* that guy, you don’t have to play him beyond even a few games, let alone a season. He’ll look to leave after the year before you ever have to ask him.
 

donaldfair71

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Cliff definitely improved over his '20 performance.

Our conference record remained the same, but we were competitive and capable of winning every game this year. You can't say the same for our '20 losses.

Prior to his injury, Clifford was getting this offense down. The Iowa 18 minutes wasn't a fluke, and that included 2 TERRIBLE throws. Without the threat of Clifford running, teams tee'd off on us. It is what it is.
I thought Cliff until Iowa was greatly improved. I thought after that he had about 6 good quarters but still had some unacceptable lapses like the fumble at Ohio State and the missed TD against Michigan.
 

VaDave4PSU

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I thought Cliff until Iowa was greatly improved. I thought after that he had about 6 good quarters but still had some unacceptable lapses like the fumble at Ohio State and the missed TD against Michigan.

Cliff became aware of getting hit, and was hurt to the point he wasn't mobile. While nowhere near his '20 self, he was largely ineffective for long stretches and seemed to lack the ability to put a dagger in an opponent.

Auburn/Iowa Clifford scrambles after the fumble and hits Dotson for a TD against Michigan. He doesn't fumble away a TD to the Buckeyes.

One thing about CV that I liked is he threw passes that I think the Yurcich offense requires that Clifford never adapted to. The back shoulder TD to Washington. The lob to a 6'6" Warren. Certain blitzes require getting rid of the ball quickly. Clifford didn't want to do that after his injury and when he did, his mechanics and accuracy were bad.
 

GregInPitt

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A healthy Sean Clifford is an asset for the football program. Give SC a decent running game, 2.5 legit targets at WR and 4 seconds in the pocket and he’ll take you to a Rose Bowl.
Not that he isn't an average B10 QB, but I just don't see him as a QB to lead PSU to the playoffs. And just having an average B10 QB, keeping the young talent recruited at QB from seeing the field and developing, is not moving the program towards bigger and better results on the field...

If he really was a high talent QB he would be leaving for the NFL anyway.

JMO.
 
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donaldfair71

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Not that he isn't an average B10 QB, but I just don't see him as a QB to lead PSU to the playoffs. And just having an average B10 QB, keeping the young talent recruited at QB from seeing the field and developing, is not moving the program towards bigger and better results on the field...

If he really was a high talent QB he would be leaving for the NFL anyway.

JMO.
Yeah. At some point, you have to move on. That point was last Saturday around 7 eastern.
 
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donaldfair71

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Cliff became aware of getting hit, and was hurt to the point he wasn't mobile. While nowhere near his '20 self, he was largely ineffective for long stretches and seemed to lack the ability to put a dagger in an opponent.

Auburn/Iowa Clifford scrambles after the fumble and hits Dotson for a TD against Michigan. He doesn't fumble away a TD to the Buckeyes.

One thing about CV that I liked is he threw passes that I think the Yurcich offense requires that Clifford never adapted to. The back shoulder TD to Washington. The lob to a 6'6" Warren. Certain blitzes require getting rid of the ball quickly. Clifford didn't want to do that after his injury and when he did, his mechanics and accuracy were bad.
Can’t argue with any of this.
The offensive line was bad no doubt. Awful. As bad as a line could be. But at the same time, I don’t believe that all the sacks and hits were on the line, I just don’t. He ran into a lot of the hits and sacks, jumpy and throwing off the back foot way too often. In just 3 quarters, CV played in the same offense and wasn’t just getting battered to death and looking at the rush constantly (and don’t tell me it was Rutgers- SC was getting battered that game as well until he left).
To me, it’s not a matter of the backup is the most popular guy, it’s not. I just don’t think SC is very good. CV had his issues for sure, a little confused at times. But the offense had a different pace and feel with him in.
 
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