World Cup: 2-0 halftime lead for Argentina…

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Ok so is it ok for college football to go to 2 point conversions to end a game in multiple overtimes? That’s basically what’s happening there because they played two extra time periods and they were still tied.

Yes an No

They don't give each team the ball on the goal line in overtime in professional football, which is essentially what a penalty kick is the World Cup Final at least in my estimation. I just don't like it. Sorry. I know you can't end with the game tied, but it seems like a game like that the kicks should've maybe have been the from a little bit further back than a normal penalty kick is... I don't know. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it it almost feels like a coin flip where you let each player guess the flip, and whoever gets the most correct guesses wins.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

For those like me that might not understand some things about the game, even ESPN struggles with it.
View attachment 282694

I am surprised that they didn't call them Ole Miss

 

[patdog]

They should keep playing but each team has to take a player off every five minutes after extra time.

I don’t like extra time because teams usually just bunker in & wait for penalties. And penalties is kind of random and artificial. But this has promise. Wouldn’t take long before teams would have to open up & someone would score.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

I don’t like extra time because teams usually just bunker in & wait for penalties. And penalties is kind of random and artificial. But this has promise. Wouldn’t take long before teams would have to open up & someone would score.

A shoot out is the equivalent of going to home run derby instead of extra innings in baseball, a putting or long-drive contest in golf instead of a sudden death or n-hole playoff, or HORSE in basketball by reducing a sport down to just a couple skills that might not necessarily define the best team.

I'm pretty certain I'm not the first person to come up with this idea, but I think it has a lot of promise and you have to be strategic about the game. A red card earlier in the game would be compounded greatly. Do you pull a defensive or offensive player first? Should you leave in better players who have yellow cards knowing they might get sent off and put you at a disadvantage?

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Yes an No

They don't give each team the ball on the goal line in overtime in professional football, which is essentially what a penalty kick is the World Cup Final at least in my estimation. I just don't like it. Sorry. I know you can't end with the game tied, but it seems like a game like that the kicks should've maybe have been the from a little bit further back than a normal penalty kick is... I don't know. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it it almost feels like a coin flip where you let each player guess the flip, and whoever gets the most correct guesses wins.

But they played an additional 30 minutes and were still tied. It’s not like they immediately went to PKs after regulation.

 

[Coast_Dawg]

Sudden death. First to score wins. Why not?

 

[FlotownDawg]

Sudden death. First to score wins. Why not?

FIFA tried that about 20 years ago but it turned out to be even worse because teams would just bunker in and play defensively afraid of making a mistake to give up a goal. Games were going to PK shootouts even more. So they abandoned the sudden death rule after a couple of years and went back to 30 minute overtime.

 

[Coast_Dawg]

FIFA tried that about 20 years ago but it turned out to be even worse because teams would just bunker in and play defensively afraid of making a mistake to give up a goal. Games were going to PK shootouts even more. So they abandoned the sudden death rule after a couple of years and went back to 30 minute overtime.

Makes sense but I didn’t know so figured I’d ask. Thanks

 

[CEO2044]

Man— I watched it again last night. What a great game.

- Two of the best to everyone play (if not the best) facing each other with talented teams.
- Both Mbappe and Messi scored in the run of play as well as PK’s- so not just “easy” goals
- Messi with 2, Mbappe with 3 in a 3 all match
- Mbappe scored THREE PK’s, Messi scored 2 (hard to score multiple)
- just so many little things…. The quality of the passing, the speed of play and decision making— world class stuff

For those in this thread that think PK’s are easy- it’s not the most perfect solution, but there wasn’t a game I saw where multiple players didn’t miss. It’s not a “gimme” at this level- the amount of pressure, the keepers knowing tendencies and their agility level, the kicker changing their minds last second based on the keeper’s movements…. There is a lot of skill involved and you have to be intelligent IMO.

After 120’ plus of hard running, it’s hard to come up with a better option. The level of fitness it takes to play at that level is unreal, but at that point most are pretty fatigued. The taking players off suggestion wouldn’t work unless you also made the field smaller- otherwise they’re going to be required to do more running than they already did the first 90’ +.

I did read where they are proposing to do PK’s prior to the game the next WC.

 

[L4Dawg]

Sudden death. First to score wins. Why not?

They did that for a while. It was loathed.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Ok so is it ok for college football to go to 2 point conversions to end a game in multiple overtimes? That’s basically what’s happening there because they played two extra time periods and they were still tied.

I think a more appropriate comparison would be if you decided a basketball game with a free throw contest after a couple of overtime periods.

Its a valid criticism in my opinion, because just about anyone posting on this board could make a penalty kick (or a free throw). It does a disservice to both teams and the great game they played to decide it that way.

They could make it sudden death OT, or do something like alternating corners or free kicks or something. When it’s cleared out of the box, its the other team’s turn. Or just keep playing.

 

[GloryDawg]

So, who is World Cup Champs?

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

I think a more appropriate comparison would be if you decided a basketball game with a free throw contest after a couple of overtime periods.

Its a valid criticism in my opinion, because just about anyone posting on this board could make a penalty kick (or a free throw). It does a disservice to both teams and the great game they played to decide it that way.

They could make it sudden death OT, or do something like alternating corners or free kicks or something. When it’s cleared out of the box, its the other team’s turn. Or just keep playing.

Hahahahaha. So everybody can make a penalty kick. OhhhhhhKay

Both teams scored in the extra time and were physically exhausted after the extra 30+ minutes. Playing more isn’t a good answer either.

If you go to sudden death the teams will just pack it in and it will go on forever.

 

[CEO2044]

I think a more appropriate comparison would be if you decided a basketball game with a free throw contest after a couple of overtime periods.

Its a valid criticism in my opinion, because just about anyone posting on this board could make a penalty kick (or a free throw). It does a disservice to both teams and the great game they played to decide it that way.

They could make it sudden death OT, or do something like alternating corners or free kicks or something. When it’s cleared out of the box, its the other team’s turn. Or just keep playing.

What? No, not everyone can make a PK. Several of the WC games went to PK’s, and to my knowledge, every game had multiple misses. Harry Kane is one of the most prolific scorers of all time in the Premier League, and he missed one that would have won the game for England. There were two misses in the finals. These are the most elite of the elite players in the world- keepers and kickers. It’s nowhere close to as easy as a free throw.

This is not comparable to rec, high school, or college soccer. At all. This is a high speed chess match combined with a ball and a net.

 

[Darryl Steight]

That second Mbappe goal isn't getting enough love. It's hard enough to make that shot if the ball was rolling towards you at that speed, but this was a volley -- he took it out of the air without a bounce. It takes unbelievable timing and the perfect strike to do what he did there. Beautiful.

Also, LOL to those guys who said making a PK is easy. It's incredibly difficult, even without a 6'5" guy who happens to be one of the best GK in the world in your way. The margin for error is very slim. And it's almost as much a mental game as physical. Did you see the GK for Argentina basically psych the 3rd French kicker into missing it wide? That happens a lot.

 

[CEO2044]

That second Mbappe goal isn't getting enough love. It's hard enough to make that shot if the ball was rolling towards you at that speed, but this was a volley -- he took it out of the air without a bounce. It takes unbelievable timing and the perfect strike to do what he did there. Beautiful.

Also, LOL to those guys who said making a PK is easy. It's incredibly difficult, even without a 6'5" guy who happens to be one of the best GK in the world in your way. The margin for error is very slim. And it's almost as much a mental game as physical. Did you see the GK for Argentina basically psych the 3rd French kicker into missing it wide? That happens a lot.

World class strike. He is the future GOAT. Amazing we got to see both of these guys face each other.

Yes, there’s a whole psychology to PK’s. Martinez won them a few games by blocking PK’s- one of the best at the mental side of it.

 

[onewoof]

every goal from the finals, MBappe' is best player on the field but Argentina is the best team

 

[FlotownDawg]

I don’t think some people understand the sheer amount of physical exertion these players put in. They are constantly running or in motion for 90 (or in this case 120) minutes. There are no timeouts and the only break is halftime. Top level soccer players run about 7-10 miles during a typical match. They are physically exhausted after 120 minutes of high level playing. They can’t just keep playing after that. A PK shootout is about the best way to settle it after 120 minutes.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I don’t like extra time because teams usually just bunker in & wait for penalties. And penalties is kind of random and artificial. But this has promise. Wouldn’t take long before teams would have to open up & someone would score.

My selfish OT rules wish on Sunday was that they played a 5 minute OT with nobody except Messi, Mbappe, and the keepers on the field. Would have been epic.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Hahahahaha. So everybody can make a penalty kick. OhhhhhhKay

Both teams scored in the extra time and were physically exhausted after the extra 30+ minutes. Playing more isn’t a good answer either.

If you go to sudden death the teams will just pack it in and it will go on forever.

True or false, the percentage of made PK’s is exponentially higher than the percentage of shots on goal in the normal flow of play….at any level of soccer?

I’m not saying that anyone could consistently make them, or that they could make as many as world class players. But I’m saying that given, say, 5 opportunities, a lot of very ordinary people could make at least one by luck if nothing else. Therefore I think its deciding the game by who can accomplish a much more fundamental, individual task the best….which is the opposite of the spirit if how the rest of the game is played. Hence the free throw comparison.

ETA: Also in a sudden death OT, why would teams pack it in? It seems that would be the exact opposite of what you would want to do. You pull everyone back and play conservatively and the other team becomes the aggressor, you could lose on something as simple as a foul or handball in the box - which is exactly how France knotted it up and sent it to PK’s on Saturday. I think teams would have to play as they normally would or risk essentially losing on PK’s except not having a chance to kick them yourself.

 

[CEO2044]

True or false, the percentage of made PK’s is exponentially higher than the percentage of shots on goal in the normal flow of play….at any level of soccer?

I’m not saying that anyone could consistently make them, or that they could make as many as world class players. But I’m saying that given, say, 5 opportunities, a lot of very ordinary people could make at least one by luck if nothing else. Therefore I think its deciding the game by who can accomplish a much more fundamental, individual task the best….which is the opposite of the spirit if how the rest of the game is played. Hence the free throw comparison.

Of course- it’s exceptionally hard to score in the run of play when elite players are playing. That’s why you don’t see high scoring games. I’d argue it’s one of the hardest things to do in any sport. That does not make your comparison valid at all.

Of you lined up five ordinary people to shoot with 89k in attendance against a world class keeper and they somehow made 1/5, they would still lose. So what’s the point?

 

[Perd Hapley]

Of course- it’s exceptionally hard to score in the run of play when elite players are playing. That’s why you don’t see high scoring games. I’d argue it’s one of the hardest things to do in any sport. That does not make your comparison valid at all.

How is it not valid? You’re deciding the outcome by a competition that is set up completely opposite from the way the game is played the other 99.99% of the time. Lets take this beautiful game of strategy and precision and endurance where it takes an extraordinary amount of teamwork to accomplish the task you must complete to win, and just say 17 it and let one person on each team decide it via a glorified coin flip….or a singular moment of one player on one team being marginally better than the other guy on the other team while the other 90% of players are on the sideline.

Of you lined up five ordinary people to shoot with 89k in attendance against a world class keeper and they somehow made 1/5, they would still lose. So what’s the point?

Really? It would have been good enough to beat Spain a few weeks ago. And they famously said they each practiced a thousand PK’s after normal practice to “avoid WC heartbreak” or something like that, too.

 

[patdog]

You’re deciding the outcome by a competition that is set up completely opposite from the way the game is played the other 99.99% of the time.

This is also why I don't like college or high school football overtime rules. You play the game with one set of rules for 60 minutes and then do something completely different to decide a winner.

 

[CEO2044]

How is it not valid? You’re deciding the outcome by a competition that is set up completely opposite from the way the game is played the other 99.99% of the time. Lets take this beautiful game of strategy and precision and endurance where it takes an extraordinary amount of teamwork to accomplish the task you must complete to win, and just say 17 it and let one person on each team decide it via a glorified coin flip….or a singular moment of one player on one team being marginally better than the other guy on the other team while the other 90% of players are on the sideline.



Really? It would have been good enough to beat Spain a few weeks ago. And they famously said they each practiced a thousand PK’s after normal practice to “avoid WC heartbreak” or something like that, too.

They’ve run for 120’ with 3 breaks and limited subs. What else do you want them to do? That’s like asking someone who finished a marathon to go run a quick race around a track after they finish. They’re spent. If there were a better way to do it, they’d do it.

Spain didn’t take 5 shots- they took 3. And I’m pretty sure if Spain missed three that am average person would probably also miss BECAUSE THE KEEPER IS TOO GOOD and it’s more than just walking up and hitting it at a spot. Goodness. If it was that easy Spain would have hit some.

 

[patdog]

They’ve run for 120’ with 3 breaks and limited subs. What else do you want them to do? That’s like asking someone who finished a marathon to go run a quick race around a track after they finish. They’re spent. If there were a better way to do it, they’d do it.

Spain didn’t take 5 shots- they took 3. And I’m pretty sure if Spain missed three that am average person would probably also miss BECAUSE THE KEEPER IS TOO GOOD and it’s more than just walking up and hitting it at a spot. Goodness. If it was that easy Spain would have hit some.

Penalty kicks are like free throws. They look easy. But they're not. Especially in pressure situations.

 

[CEO2044]

Penalty kicks are like free throws. They look easy. But they're not. Especially in pressure situations.

In that sense only.

They’re harder because you also have someone trying to block it that’s pretty good at it and you’re trying to outsmart each other.

PK’s also get harder the higher level you play. Free throws don’t change really except there’s more pressure and the crowd can distract you more. PK’s you have to be a lot more precise and hit it a lot harder, have several spots you can hit, and be able to outsmart the keeper, who is better.

 

[Perd Hapley]

They’ve run for 120’ with 3 breaks and limited subs. What else do you want them to do? That’s like asking someone who finished a marathon to go run a quick race around a track after they finish. They’re spent. If there were a better way to do it, they’d do it.

I already said what else they could do. Sudden death OT (which could make them run a lot LESS than 120 minutes), alternating free kicks / corner kicks, etc. Anything that incorporates the team aspect. Its not like its a new topic, its a fairly regular criticism.

Every other sport in the world has figured something out, and every other sport (besides perhaps baseball) also has brutally exhausted athletes at the end of the period of competition. For example, NBA players run 3 miles of mostly sprinting and do the equivalent of about 100-200 jump squats in their 60 minutes of play….more if it goes to OT. Tennis players may be the worst, those guys just have to keep going forever if it stays tied, and its just an individual out there who can’t sub out and can’t pass the ball to catch a quick breather. Soccer doesn’t have the market cornered on exhausted athletes at the end of games.

 

[Perd Hapley]

In that sense only.

They’re harder because you also have someone trying to block it that’s pretty good at it and you’re trying to outsmart each other.

PK’s also get harder the higher level you play. Free throws don’t change really except there’s more pressure and the crowd can distract you more. PK’s you have to be a lot more precise and hit it a lot harder, have several spots you can hit, and be able to outsmart the keeper, who is better.

They are similar in the sense that they are individual tasks that take the rest of the team out of the equation.

Whether a PK is easier or harder than a free throw is irrelevant. Both of them are arbitrary individual tasks that remove 95% of the normal action or strategy to scoring the ball in the goal for the sport. As such, neither should be used to determine the outcome of a game.

 

[CEO2044]

I already said what else they could do. Sudden death OT (which could make them run a lot LESS than 120 minutes), alternating free kicks / corner kicks, etc. Anything that incorporates the team aspect. Its not like its a new topic, its a fairly regular criticism.

Every other sport in the world has figured something out, and every other sport (besides perhaps baseball) also has brutally exhausted athletes at the end of the period of competition. For example, NBA players run 3 miles of mostly sprinting and do the equivalent of about 100-200 jump squats in their 60 minutes of play….more if it goes to OT. Tennis players may be the worst, those guys just have to keep going forever if it stays tied, and its just an individual out there. Soccer doesn’t have the market cornered on exhausted athletes at the end of games.

And those sports have regular breaks. Much smaller courts to cover. Basketball has unlimited subs. Not the same level of fitness whatsoever if you’ve played all three of those.

There’s not going to be a good comp- but again- get a person that ran a half marathon that tied to take a 5-10 minute break then have them sprint around a track to determine the winner.

PK’s are a part of the game. They involve strategy and skill. It is what it is. They know it’s coming. They’ve tried sudden death.

 

[CEO2044]

They are similar in the sense that they are individual tasks that take the rest of the team out of the equation.

Whether a PK is easier or harder than a free throw is irrelevant. Both of them are arbitrary individual tasks that remove 95% of the normal action or strategy to scoring the ball in the goal for the sport. As such, neither should be used to determine the outcome of a game.

Serious question- have you played soccer at a competitive level?

 

[onewoof]

Serious question - Mick Jagger runs 6 miles per concert he has and the average soccer players runs 6 miles per game.

Mick Jagger is 79 years old.

 

[CEO2044]

Serious question - Mick Jagger runs 6 miles per concert he has and the average soccer players runs 6 miles per game.

Mick Jagger is 79 years old.

Mick Jagger is elite.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Serious question- have you played soccer at a competitive level?

Nope. Couple years of rec ball but didn’t take to soccer growing up. Have gradually become much more of a fan over the years. Was a baseball / football / basketball kid back in the day.

Is that a requirement to comment on the tiebreaker rules?

 

[CEO2044]

Nope. Didn’t take to soccer growing up but have gradually become much more of a fan over the years. Was a baseball / football / basketball kid back in the day.

Is that a requirement to comment on the tiebreaker rules?

No, but I keep hearing it’s some arbitrary task, and it’s not. Yes, it’s between two individuals. It can still literally go to every kicker on the two teams. Hockey does a penalty shootout as well, but I don’t ever hear people complain like they do soccer.

The people that keep arguing this are typically people that didn’t play and don’t get that even though most people don’t LOVE it, those that play get that it’s the best option because most of the other solutions have already been tried. PK’s are part of the game.

sudden death can suck too- the NFL rules where if you win the coin toss you are almost guaranteed to win the game is the worst rule of all.

 

[Perd Hapley]

No, but I keep hearing it’s some arbitrary task, and it’s not. Yes, it’s between two individuals. It can still literally go to every kicker on the two teams. Hockey does a penalty shootout as well, but I don’t ever hear people complain like they do soccer.

The people that keep arguing this are typically people that didn’t play and don’t get that even though most people don’t LOVE it, those that play get that it’s the best option because most of the other solutions have already been tried. PK’s are part of the game.

sudden death can suck too- the NFL rules where if you win the coin toss you are almost guaranteed to win the game is the worst rule of all.

I mean that it is arbitrary in how it was decided that it would be an outcome deciding event. It makes no more sense to do that than it does to do a free kick / corner kick competition. I realize even most who have played don’t love it either, but it being “part of the game” doesn’t mean its a good thing. I remember when having human refs calling offsides or not, in real time, was “how it had to be, because its part of the game”, but they made improvements to make what was once one of the most difficult officiating calls in sports an impossible thing to screw up, and now the game is better for it.

There’s always room for improvement, and I’m genuinely approaching this from a perspective of fully appreciating the team aspect of soccer and embracing some form of that to decide all levels of tiebreaker. Its an awesome sport that should have a winner decided by a method that represents the best parts of how the game is played.

And I don’t think that the sudden death of NFL can be compared to soccer, where you are almost 100% assured of each team having possession at least once before the match is decided.

 

[Darryl Steight]

Anything that incorporates the team aspect.

Just my 2 cents, but the PK setup does have a pretty big team element to it. You have to find 5 guys on your team who can kick with exact power and precision, can handle the pressure, can handle the mental goading from the GK, etc. It's not like Argentina can let Messi kick all 5 times.

Not to mention, you also must have a world class GK who can stop the other 5 guys from making all 5 of their "easy" shots. So it's at least 6 on 6 if it doesn't go past the original 5 shots.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

This is also why I don't like college or high school football overtime rules. You play the game with one set of rules for 60 minutes and then do something completely different to decide a winner.

There's not a right answer when it comes to doing rules for overtime no matter what the sport is. There's not a sport out there that has overtime rules that I really like but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to find rules that everybody likes for any sport.

I opened this kettle of fish, because I don't like place kicks deciding a match, because there has been so much athleticism, hurt, pain, emotion, whatever… Already in the game it's sad to see it in single kicks I just wonder if they could do something different with the actual penalty kick itself that would differentiate it from a penalty kick during the game. May be started out further I don't know, but I do like the fact at least make you win by two. Unless you're tied again, of course.

 

[L4Dawg]

True or false, the percentage of made PK’s is exponentially higher than the percentage of shots on goal in the normal flow of play….at any level of soccer?

I’m not saying that anyone could consistently make them, or that they could make as many as world class players. But I’m saying that given, say, 5 opportunities, a lot of very ordinary people could make at least one by luck if nothing else. Therefore I think its deciding the game by who can accomplish a much more fundamental, individual task the best….which is the opposite of the spirit if how the rest of the game is played. Hence the free throw comparison.

ETA: Also in a sudden death OT, why would teams pack it in? It seems that would be the exact opposite of what you would want to do. You pull everyone back and play conservatively and the other team becomes the aggressor, you could lose on something as simple as a foul or handball in the box - which is exactly how France knotted it up and sent it to PK’s on Saturday. I think teams would have to play as they normally would or risk essentially losing on PK’s except not having a chance to kick them yourself.

It was tried, they packed it in. It still went to PKs after 30 minutes if no one had scored. They just can't keep playing forever.

 

[CEO2044]

I mean that it is arbitrary in how it was decided that it would be an outcome deciding event. It makes no more sense to do that than it does to do a free kick / corner kick competition. I realize even most who have played don’t love it either, but it being “part of the game” doesn’t mean its a good thing. I remember when having human refs calling offsides or not, in real time, was “how it had to be, because its part of the game”, but they made improvements to make what was once one of the most difficult officiating calls in sports an impossible thing to screw up, and now the game is better for it.

There’s always room for improvement, and I’m genuinely approaching this from a perspective of fully appreciating the team aspect of soccer and embracing some form of that to decide all levels of tiebreaker. Its an awesome sport that should have a winner decided by a method that represents the best parts of how the game is played.

And I don’t think that the sudden death of NFL can be compared to soccer, where you are almost 100% assured of each team having possession at least once before the match is decided.

If the team that gets the ball first scored on opening possession, it’s over. Unless that changed recently.

 

[CEO2044]

There's not a right answer when it comes to doing rules for overtime no matter what the sport is. There's not a sport out there that has overtime rules that I really like but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to find rules that everybody likes for any sport.

I opened this kettle of fish, because I don't like place kicks deciding a match, because there has been so much athleticism, hurt, pain, emotion, whatever… Already in the game it's sad to see it in single kicks I just wonder if they could do something different with the actual penalty kick itself that would differentiate it from a penalty kick during the game. May be started out further I don't know, but I do like the fact at least make you win by two. Unless you're tied again, of course.

I think it always just ends up coming back to PK’s no matter what solution they come up with.

I personally don’t think it’s necessary to start back further- as you can see if you watched a lot of the games (several went to kicks), plenty of stops/misses from that distance. The kicker usually has to put a lot of pace on the ball to get it by the keeper, and the harder you smash it the less accurate you get. Hence a lot of the misses. If everyone was making them and you rarely saw stops, I’d agree. As it is, though, several keepers had 2 saves in PK’s- that’s pretty damn good.