A question for those who don't want Clemson in the SEC

[atl-cock]

For the years right after we left it was not good for us. But joining the SEC has been the best thing for USC. That's why Texas, Oklahoma, and anyone else including the orange clad rednecks from Clemsux want into the SEC. Now as far as screwing USC, yes they did and that fact will never change no matter what we might have done. Even Maryland got out and it is a conference that will not exist one day.

No - Clemron did not screw us vis a vis the ACC departure. We left on our own, immature accord. It's merely an urban legend that there was a "pact" to leave jointly with Clemron.

Clemron was dissatisfied with ACC academic standards as well (never mind that both USC and Clemron voted for those standards initially). But they decided to wait out that pending court case regarding a couple of athletes while USC was too impatient.

 

[HillsToSea]

Premature seminal release - onto the sheets.

Adroitly stated

 

[atl-cock]

There was a lawsuit that Clemson brought against the ACC to reduce the high SAT requirements. Clemson found out what the decision was going to be and let both us and Maryland know. Clemson and Maryland stayed, we left. A few weeks later the decision was announced and the ACC had to lower it SAT requirements to the NCAA requirements.

No - it was a couple of Clemron student-athletes who filed suit against Clemron and the ACC. Clemron decided to wait out the results of the lawsuit before determining what course of action (if any) to take, We were too mad, impatient, and immature, and thus foolishly left the league.,

 

[atl-cock]

Clemson did screw us back then - they agreed to leave the ACC too and then backed out. As for now, they are probably already down on one knee begging someone to join the the SEC. The ACC schedule they is the perfect reason the playoffs should NOT have a bye, that likely rewards weaker schedules, and would result in them having to beat one more decent team to advance. NOT a reason to let them join the SEC. And, in terms of recruiting they are fine now but the ACC puny money will eventually catch up with them - of course it will not happen overnight. When it does, we will have a big recruiting advantage over them. If they are in the SEC we will have NO recruiting advantage. Some kids play for a chance at the NC but that will get harder and harder for them as the ACC withers. We already get some kids because they want to play in the SEC - we must maintain that advantage and not bail them out!!! I want to play them but dropping them, if essential, would be better that letting them reap the benefits of the SEC.

They never agreed to leave the ACC - urban legend.

 

[HillsToSea]

I read somewhere that McGuire was for leaving at first. Changed his mind

 

[atl-cock]

I read somewhere that McGuire was for leaving at first. Changed his mind

Methinks McGuire was merely going along with Dietzel on this, i.e., he would never have led the charge out of the ACC like Dietzel did. He thought the basketball program was on strong enough grounds to remain successful as an independent. He changed his mind when it became painfully obvious the program was not on strong enough grounds.

 

[81 Alumnus]

They never agreed to leave the ACC - urban legend.

You are 100% correct. And back in 1971 when we left, no one claimed they were planning to follow us. I never heard that being spouted anywhere until decades after the deal was done.

The State ran an article on our exit during the 90's. In it Dietzel claimed that "Frank Howard promised me that they Clemson would leave too." I remember thinking at the time that not only had I never once heard that but wondering if Dietzel was unaware that by April of 1971, Howard had been forced out as both football coach and athletic director and had no influence of any kind. Clemson prez RC Edwards and AD Bill McClellan were in charge and they were the one's who had forced Howard out much to his chagrin. Ironically too, most of the athletes who couldn't get into ACC schools because of the 800 rule were black and that was a huge part of USC's as well as clemson's, Maryland's and NC State's argument against it. But Howard's flat refusal to recruit black athletes was the straw that led to him being put out to pasture.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that Dietzel was a lousy liar but he found a gullible audience in the 1990's

That seems to be where this started. I hate clemson with all my heart but the truth is the truth is the truth. And by April, 1971 , Edwards and McClellan had already found their plaintiffs to sue the ACC over the rule and the ACC had been told by their legal counsel and their new commissioner, Bob James that not only would they lose in court but that the plaintiffs were going to play the race card. None of the people who to this day spread Dietzel's lie bother to mention that as on August 7 1971, a full week before our resignation from the ACC became official the ACC dropped the rule in response to a loss in Federal court to the two clemson student athletes.

 

[81 Alumnus]

Methinks McGuire was merely going along with Dietzel on this, i.e., he would never have led the charge out of the ACC like Dietzel did. He thought the basketball program was on strong enough grounds to remain successful as an independent. He changed his mind when it became painfully obvious the program was not on strong enough grounds.

Your instincts are sound.

A few years ago, I had a twitter exchange with John Feinstein. In his book on Dean Smith, Jim Valvano and Coach K, the Legends Club, he told several very nice stories about Coach McGuire and I thanked him for that on twitter. To my surprise he responded. He said that he met Coach McGuire when he was a student at Duke in the mid-1970's. He related that he was coming to Columbia to cover a Carolina-Duke football game as sports editor of the Duke Chronicle and sent a letter to Coach asking for an interview, never expecting to hear back. He said that not only did he hear back but "he talked to me for 90 minutes in his office and treated me like an old friend"

Feinstein said Coach went over to his desk and pulled out a copy of a letter which he then showed to Feinstein. He said it was from April, 1971 and addressed to the USC board of trustees. Feinstein said that in the letter, Coach "begged" the board not to leave the ACC saying "we are on top of the league. We won. And this is just the start,. but leaving the ACC will destroy everything we have worked so hard to build" He said Coach told him that to recruit and sell the program, he felt had no choice but to keep his objections private at the time but he wished now he had followed his instincts and fought them tooth and nail publicly on it.

Not germane to this discussion, but Feinstein added in our twitter exchange that to this day, Frank McGuire was the nicest and most down to earth famous person he ever met

 

[atl-cock]

You are 100% correct. And back in 1971 when we left, no one claimed they were planning to follow us. I never heard that being spouted anywhere until decades after the deal was done.

The State ran an article on our exit during the 90's. In it Dietzel claimed that "Frank Howard promised me that they Clemson would leave too." I remember thinking at the time that not only had I never once heard that but wondering if Dietzel was unaware that by April of 1971, Howard had been forced out as both football coach and athletic director and had no influence of any kind. Clemson prez RC Edwards and AD Bill McClellan were in charge and they were the one's who had forced Howard out much to his chagrin. Ironically too, most of the athletes who couldn't get into ACC schools because of the 800 rule were black and that was a huge part of USC's as well as clemson's, Maryland's and NC State's argument against it. But Howard's flat refusal to recruit black athletes was the straw that led to him being put out to pasture.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that Dietzel was a lousy liar but he found a gullible audience in the 1990's

That seems to be where this started. I hate clemson with all my heart but the truth is the truth is the truth. And by April, 1971 , Edwards and McClellan had already found their plaintiffs to sue the ACC over the rule and the ACC had been told by their legal counsel and their new commissioner, Bob James that not only would they lose in court but that the plaintiffs were going to play the race card. None of the people who to this day spread Dietzel's lie bother to mention that as on August 7 1971, a full week before our resignation from the ACC became official the ACC dropped the rule in response to a loss in Federal court to the two clemson student athletes.

I never heard that about Howard, but in retrospect, I'm not surprised.

J. Samuel Walker In his book "ACC Basketball: The Story of the Rivalries, Traditions, and Scandals of the First Two Decades of the Atlantic Coast Conference" discussed the racial integration of the ACC in basketball, football, and a few "minor" sports as well. He notes that Maryland's first black football player was Darryl Hill in 1963. Walker writes about the pure anger and disdain Howard showed on the field towards Hill as he was taking pregame warmups at Memorial Stadium on 11/16/1963 along with his Terrapin teammates.

And yet i found this interesting read online:

Clemson's first black football player has spent lifetime laying foundations

But I think that 81 Alumnus is correct regarding Howard's racist views.

Regarding a gullible audience, Dietzel found that at USC in 1970-1971 with his tales about how much better USC athletics would be outside of the ACC.

 

[GCJerryUSC]

Was so Poed at the ACC for its unfair treatment of USC that I was all for withdrawal but later regretted it after I saw what it did to MBB. Our ACC FB games were so interesting with "The Voice" calling the games. At that time was a stupid decision led by stupid Dietzel, who "was gonna make USC a FB power" without that rule.

Another stupid decision-firing Jim Carlen. The BOT must have consisted of morons rivaling Dietzel. Of course if USC hadn't withdrew, the SEC wouldn't have come calling so it took twenty years for that lame decision to change into a great decision. USC would be in a heap of trouble if still a member of that lame conference. The SEC threw USC a lifeline after wallowing in independent status and FSU and Miami not being able to see beyond their outstretched arms and telling the SEC NO.

The ACC should have done more to keep a founding member in the fold but they were biased and filled with hatred because of McGuire's MBB success. I feel that if the ACC and USC had been able to reach an agreement the ACC would not be teetering on PAC 12 status today. They virtually chased USC out and denied membership when USC, hat in hand, came calling a few years later.

 

[atl-cock]

Was so Poed at the ACC for its unfair treatment of USC that I was all for withdrawal but later regretted it after I saw what it did to MBB. Our ACC FB games were so interesting with "The Voice" calling the games. At that time was a stupid decision led by stupid Dietzel, who "was gonna make USC a FB power" without that rule.

Another stupid decision-firing Jim Carlen. The BOT must have consisted of morons rivaling Dietzel. Of course if USC hadn't withdrew, the SEC wouldn't have come calling so it took twenty years for that lame decision to change into a great decision. USC would be in a heap of trouble if still a member of that lame conference. The SEC threw USC a lifeline after wallowing in independent status and FSU and Miami not being able to see beyond their outstretched arms and telling the SEC NO.

The ACC should have done more to keep a founding member in the fold but they were biased and filled with hatred because of McGuire's MBB success. I feel that if the ACC and USC had been able to reach an agreement the ACC would not be teetering on PAC 12 status today. They virtually chased USC out and denied membership when USC, hat in hand, came calling a few years later.

Wasn't Arkansas a member of the Southwest Conference when the SEC came calling? Who's to say the ACC membership would have prevented an SEC invitation?

Further, the ACC did not hate USC's success with McGuire. Their dislike of his mannerisms goes back to his days at UnCarolina. He and Dook's Eddie Cameron really had it in for each other, and that non-relationship followed Frank from Chapel Hell to Columbia.

 

[Anderson Gamecock]

You are 100% correct. And back in 1971 when we left, no one claimed they were planning to follow us. I never heard that being spouted anywhere until decades after the deal was done.

The State ran an article on our exit during the 90's. In it Dietzel claimed that "Frank Howard promised me that they Clemson would leave too." I remember thinking at the time that not only had I never once heard that but wondering if Dietzel was unaware that by April of 1971, Howard had been forced out as both football coach and athletic director and had no influence of any kind. Clemson prez RC Edwards and AD Bill McClellan were in charge and they were the one's who had forced Howard out much to his chagrin. Ironically too, most of the athletes who couldn't get into ACC schools because of the 800 rule were black and that was a huge part of USC's as well as clemson's, Maryland's and NC State's argument against it. But Howard's flat refusal to recruit black athletes was the straw that led to him being put out to pasture.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that Dietzel was a lousy liar but he found a gullible audience in the 1990's

That seems to be where this started. I hate clemson with all my heart but the truth is the truth is the truth. And by April, 1971 , Edwards and McClellan had already found their plaintiffs to sue the ACC over the rule and the ACC had been told by their legal counsel and their new commissioner, Bob James that not only would they lose in court but that the plaintiffs were going to play the race card. None of the people who to this day spread Dietzel's lie bother to mention that as on August 7 1971, a full week before our resignation from the ACC became official the ACC dropped the rule in response to a loss in Federal court to the two clemson student athletes.

I went to a Carolina-Clemson football game when I was an undergrad (59-63)and there were no African American players on either team. Clemson had a black trainer or equipment man. I was sitting in the student section near where Clemson came out from their dressing room. As Coach Howard came out, the black guy was standing nearby. Coach Howard made a fist and rubbed the top of the black man's head. That type of gesture was considered by some during the years of segregation to provide good luck to the person doing the rubbing. Still hard for me to believe I witnessed that.

 

[atl-cock]

I went to a Carolina-Clemson football game when I was an undergrad (59-63)and there were no African American players on either team. Clemson had a black trainer or equipment man. I was sitting in the student section near where Clemson came out from their dressing room. As Coach Howard came out, the black guy was standing nearby. Coach Howard made a fist and rubbed the top of the black man's head. That type of gesture was considered by some during the years of segregation to provide good luck to the person doing the rubbing. Still hard for me to believe I witnessed that.

Even though Clemron had desegregated in January 1963, Memorial Stadium was still off-limits to blacks, e.g., unlike other athletic venues which had separate sections for white and black patrons, Memorial Stadium had none, also consistent with Howard's demeanour towards Darryl Hill.

Here's a snippet from a Wikipedia article on Darryl regarding Palestine Hill, his mother, and her attempt to see the game live and in person, and how president Edwards handled the situation.

At the end of that season, the Terps played an away game against the Clemson University Tigers, who were led by coach Frank Howard. After Maryland announced that Hill was to play, Clemson threatened to leave the conference. Howard vowed that his team would not allow any black to play in their stadium, which was popularly known as "Death Valley" due to the power of their team. They threatened to pull out of the game if Maryland brought Hill. Hill’s mother, Palestine, was refused general entry to the ‘whites only’ stadium, but Clemson President Robert Edwards took Mrs. Hill to his private box. The game went on, and Darryl Hill set the ACC record in that game for pass receptions in a game, a record that stood for many years.

In Walker's book, he mentioned that Edwards invited her to spend the night at the President's house, and drove her (or had her driven) to the train station the next morning.

To be fair, we weren't much better on 9/28/1963:

The Maryland team was protected by National Guard when it went out on the field at the University of South Carolina in Columbia.

I despise Clemron athletically as a rival as well as any honourable Gamecock, but how president Edwards handled that situation was outstanding, and most consistent with what 81 Alumnus posted in message 207 of this thread.

 

[Forkcock]

Even though Clemron had desegregated in January 1963, Memorial Stadium was still off-limits to blacks, e.g., unlike other athletic venues which had separate sections for white and black patrons, Memorial Stadium had none, also consistent with Howard's demeanour towards Darryl Hill.

Here's a snippet from a Wikipedia article on Darryl regarding Palestine Hill, his mother, and her attempt to see the game live and in person, and how president Edwards handled the situation.

At the end of that season, the Terps played an away game against the Clemson University Tigers, who were led by coach Frank Howard. After Maryland announced that Hill was to play, Clemson threatened to leave the conference. Howard vowed that his team would not allow any black to play in their stadium, which was popularly known as "Death Valley" due to the power of their team. They threatened to pull out of the game if Maryland brought Hill. Hill’s mother, Palestine, was refused general entry to the ‘whites only’ stadium, but Clemson President Robert Edwards took Mrs. Hill to his private box. The game went on, and Darryl Hill set the ACC record in that game for pass receptions in a game, a record that stood for many years.

In Walker's book, he mentioned that Edwards invited her to spend the night at the President's house, and drove her (or had her driven) to the train station the next morning.

To be fair, we weren't much better on 9/28/1963:

The Maryland team was protected by National Guard when it went out on the field at the University of South Carolina in Columbia.

I despise Clemron athletically as a rival as well as any honourable Gamecock, but how president Edwards handled that situation was outstanding, and most consistent with what 81 Alumnus posted in message 207 of this thread.

And black players rub Howard's Rock before every home game.

 

[atl-cock]

And black players rub Howard's Rock before every home game.

Are there any Clemsionians, regardless of skin colour, who don't rub the rock? But yeah, I see the irony.

 

[CaughtLookin]

 

[Forkcock]

Are there any Clemsionians, regardless of skin colour, who don't rub the rock? But yeah, I see the irony.

In a world where statues of Abe Lincoln are being taken down, it's remarkable that black players at Clemson rub Howard's Rock.

 

[Mauze1]

It has at least been discussed that we could lose the Clemson game upon going to a 9-game conference schedule (see the 3rd question to Beamer in this recent interview: https://247sports.com/LongFormArtic...e-changes-expectations-205599506/#205599506_4)

So, the question: Do you oppose Clemson to the SEC even if it means the end of the series or would you grudgingly accept them into the SEC for the sake of preserving the series?

I may be wrong BUT, I can’t see the SEC telling Florida they can’t play FSU, or Georgia they can’t play Tech, or KY and Louisville etc. Clemson is more valuable to the SEC as a member of the ACC. inter Conference rivalries are good for the game. But, so we’re bowl games. LOL

 

[USCBatgirl21]

You can't cancel series. It is required by state legislation that was passed years ago!

Not going through 6 pages, but this is not true. The legislation was never passed.

 

[USCBatgirl21]

If we are scared to play Clemson if we go to 9 games, but want to act like we're good enough to compete in the SEC, playing Clemson shouldn't matter. IF we are good enough to compete in the SEC, we will be good enough to beat Clemson.

As to why I don't want them in the SEC, it is the same reason I want them to lose everything, and why I don't subscribe to this "it's good for the State to pull for both teams". I don't care if it's good for the State. It hurts my team, in recruiting especially, for them to win. What's good for them is bad for USC. It's that simple. Exhibit 1 - did our winning 2 CWS titles help them in baseball recruiting? Do we really want them waving the "SEC" banner in football recruiting? Have you people who want them in the SEC lost your damn minds????

 

[18IsTheMan]

Irrespective of how it impacts Clemson, I first and foremost always want what’s best for USC. In this case, it happens to be Clemson joining the SEC. If it happens to also be beneficial to them, so be it. I would never choose something bad for us just because it’s also bad for Clemson. What fool would?

 

[atl-cock]

Not going through 6 pages, but this is not true. The legislation was never passed.

The legislation which did pass applied only to Big Thursday in 1952.

 

[Lurker123]

The legislation which did pass applied only to Big Thursday in 1952.

And yet when this conversation comes again in a year or two, the same people will argue that they are positive there is still a law on the books.