Christ is risen! If you haven't already, please reflect on what we celebrate

[blacklistedbully]

Not just that Christ is risen, but that it made possible for all of us to rise and join Him for eternal glory! It is the rising from the death Christ endured for each & every one of us, not in some abstract way but in the most personal, direct way to each & every one of us. He made that sacrifice knowing you intimately even before birth. He endured all that pain, suffering & worldly death for me & you specifically!

I know I often need to remind myself not to think of this so much as a "general pardon" as it is instead deeply personal and direct to all of His children. And yes, we are children of God. There is no greater love than what God the Father & Christ our Savior has for us, His children!

I hope you all are able to celebrate this greatest of gifts today feeling the warm, loving embrace of Our Lord & Savior in the deeply personal way it is given to you.

Happy Easter, everybody!

 

[Cantdoitsal]

 

[HailStout]

 

[InTheIttaBenaHotSun]

Not just that Christ is risen, but that it made possible for all of us to rise and join Him for eternal glory! It is the rising from the death Christ endured for each & every one of us, not in some abstract way but in the most personal, direct way to each & every one of us. He made that sacrifice knowing you intimately even before birth. He endured all that pain, suffering & worldly death for me & you specifically!

I know I often need to remind myself not to think of this so much as a "general pardon" as it is instead deeply personal and direct to all of His children. And yes, we are children of God. There is no greater love than what God the Father & Christ our Savior has for us, His children!

I hope you all are able to celebrate this greatest of gifts today feeling the warm, loving embrace of Our Lord & Savior in the deeply personal way it given to you.

Happy Easter, everybody!

He has risen indeed!

 

[RockyDog]

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

 

[Cantdoitsal]

Morning Star's Absence is quite telling here. (JK MS), Had to throw that in there, couldn't resist.

 

[BingleCocktail]

Morning Star's Absence is quite telling here. (JK MS), Had to throw that in there, couldn't resist.

THATS BECAUSE HE HAS FALLEN**

 

[msudawg1200]

Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. Thank God for Salvation.

 

[Mobile Bay]

Yet according to some mistaken people he only died for the select few who God chose thousands of years before and since we have no choice in the matter those who are not on God's special list are 17ined.

 

[PhredPhantom]

Yet according to some mistaken people he only died for the select few who God chose thousands of years before and since we have no choice in the matter those who are not on God's special list are 17ined.

You might want to be careful about saying that the Inspired Word of God in the Bible is “mistaken”.


Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Mobile Bay]

You might want to be careful about saying that the Inspired Word of God in the Bible is “mistaken”.


Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

"Ye are saved through faith." -- Ephesians 2:8.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 43 - The Scripture Way Of Salvation

 

[AstroDog]

A 2nd Chance! Without Jesus and Easter......God would demand our blood for our wrongdoings. Jesus has given us a way out.

 

[mcdawg22]

 

[OG Goat Holder]

You might want to be careful about saying that the Inspired Word of God in the Bible is “mistaken”.


Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Hmmm, sounds like a Presbyterian who doesn't really want to adhere to the Great Commission.

Most reasonable people can gather that God was speaking about all people. It's a Biblical fact that we have free will of choice. You can parse through the Bible 100 different ways, but you really have to look at the big picture and sort through the context.

 

[GloryDawg]

From the Bible

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one-fold, and one Sheperd."

From the Book of Mormon

3rd Nephi 11:8-10

8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

We Mormons believe after his 40 days he visited the Americas. Not sure exactly when after.

I thought I would share.

 

[HailStout]

I follow two simple rules to be a christian

1. Have faith like a child
2. Don’t be a D*ck

Everything else is details that are fun to talk about but shouldn’t drive a wedge between Christians

 

[ronpolk]

I follow two simple rules to be a christian

1. Have faith like a child
2. Don’t be a D*ck

Everything else is details that are fun to talk about but shouldn’t drive a wedge between Christians

I try to be very similar. I’ve tried to wrap my brain around predestination, which is being discussed above, and frankly I just can’t. It’s hard for me to come to grips with the fact that some people will never be saved and that’s the way God intended it. That may be the case or it may just be misunderstood, I don’t think I’ll ever understand. Just thankful for my faith and also being given the ability to accept things I don’t understand. I can’t imagine the struggle for people that have the need to understand God and his ways fully.

 

[HailStout]

I try to be very similar. I’ve tried to wrap my brain around predestination, which is being discussed above, and frankly I just can’t. It’s hard for me to come to grips with the fact that some people will never be saved and that’s the way God intended it. That may be the case or it may just be misunderstood, I don’t think I’ll ever understand. Just thankful for my faith and also being given the ability to accept things I don’t understand. I can’t imagine the struggle for people that have the need to understand God and his ways fully.

We are all gonna get to heaven and realize none of us had all the details even close to right. Except those 2 I listed

 

[FQDawg]

I follow two simple rules to be a christian

1. Have faith like a child
2. Don’t be a D*ck

Everything else is details that are fun to talk about but shouldn’t drive a wedge between Christians

This is one of my all-time favorite tweets about your second point:

 

[OG Goat Holder]

This is one of my all-time favorite tweets about your second point:

Know what the only difference is between Christianity, and Judaism and Islam? The crucifixion. That's it.

That should be fairly eye-opening to the rule-mongers in all 3 of those those major religions. I don't think we're far off from seeing true Christianity just being a minority among all 3 of the others. Mainstream Christianity will be more like a Christian 'culture', that we see in many places, especially in the South, encompassing all the denominations, Catholicism, etc. True Christianity will be more of a smaller group of people truly committed to missions but disgusted by the state of the church, and probably persecuted.

I don't know enough about where Mormonism comes in on that spectrum, maybe @GloryDawg can share more. Hinduism is sort of its own thing. Not sure on Buddhism either.

 

[FQDawg]

Know what the only difference is between Christianity, and Judaism and Islam? The crucifixion. That's it.

That should be fairly eye-opening to the rule-mongers in all 3 of those those major religions.

That's... a fairly simplistic view of things. And not even 100% accurate. The difference there isn't necessarily about the crucifixion, it's whether they view Jesus as divine. And there are plenty of other differences between the faiths in terms of things like how (or if) they view the concept of the Holy Spirit, their views on original sin and rituals/services that are part of their day-to-day expression of faith.

And that's not to mention bacon. Delicious, delicious bacon.

But, if the larger point you are trying to make is that the religions have a lot more in common with each other than seems to be readily apparent, then yes, you are right.

 

[HailStout]

This is one of my all-time favorite tweets about your second point:

This is the most perfect thing i have seen in a long time. Thank you

 

[patdog]

Know what the only difference is between Christianity, and Judaism and Islam? The crucifixion. That's it.

That's a pretty freaking big difference. Also, not even close to being true, especially with Islam.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

That's... a fairly simplistic view of things. And not even 100% accurate. The difference there isn't necessarily about the crucifixion, it's whether they view Jesus as divine. And there are plenty of other differences between the faiths in terms of things like how (or if) they view the concept of the Holy Spirit, their views on original sin and rituals/services that are part of their day-to-day expression of faith.

And that's not to mention bacon. Delicious, delicious bacon.

But, if the larger point you are trying to make is that the religions have a lot more in common with each other than seems to be readily apparent, then yes, you are right.

Correct. I think in long-term, general ways. I've never cared much for details, and most people who disagree with me on many things get caught up in those details. And that's fine, I know those details are there, but when it comes to typing on a message board, I generally do not dive into them. I like discussing the big needle movers, rather than the small things.

And yes, when I talk of crucifixion, I'm talking about the entire event and its significance, not just the factual event (again, another detail).

 

[PhredPhantom]

Hmmm, sounds like a Presbyterian who doesn't really want to adhere to the Great Commission.

Most reasonable people can gather that God was speaking about all people. It's a Biblical fact that we have free will of choice. You can parse through the Bible 100 different ways, but you really have to look at the big picture and sort through the context.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

If we are dead (and we are as the Bible clearly states) we cannot have free will or any will at all, for that matter. Dead is dead. God makes those whom He has predestined alive together with Christ by His own Grace; not by our own free will.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

This is pretty straight-forward and unambiguous. *No one* can come unless the Father draws him. That pretty much rules out the ability to decide to believe in Jesus as our Savior through our own “free will”.


Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

This pretty much rules out free will - if you believe what God put in the Bible.

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

These are the quoted words of Jesus. I’m pretty sure He knew what He was talking about.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

On a related note, people cannot change their gender, either.

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So much for us having “free will” to decide to have Faith in Jesus.

The Bible has many, many more references on this subject but, in the interest of brevity, I have only listed and commented on a few.

The bottom line is that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve who committed the original sin which, as the Bible tells us, continues to pass down through all generations. We are sinful by our very nature but God, in His sovereignty, chooses to save some, but not all, of us. Our Faith comes as a free gift from God. Pride and/or ignorance makes some people decide believe that they, without God’s help, have given Faith to themselves through free will. The Bible teaches us otherwise.

I hope this thread doesn’t get locked. It’s pretty interesting.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

If we are dead (and we are as the Bible clearly states) we cannot have free will or any will at all, for that matter. Dead is dead. God makes those whom He has predestined alive together with Christ by His own Grace; not by our own free will.

This pretty much rules out free will - if you believe what God put in the Bible.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion from reading those verses. We all ARE dead, that, I agree. But the gift of grace is available to everyone......not really sure how you can debate that.

 

[FQDawg]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

If we are dead (and we are as the Bible clearly states) we cannot have free will or any will at all, for that matter. Dead is dead. God makes those whom He has predestined alive together with Christ by His own Grace; not by our own free will.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

This is pretty straight-forward and unambiguous. *No one* can come unless the Father draws him. That pretty much rules out the ability to decide to believe in Jesus as our Savior through our own “free will”.


Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

This pretty much rules out free will - if you believe what God put in the Bible.

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

These are the quoted words of Jesus. I’m pretty sure He knew what He was talking about.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

On a related note, people cannot change their gender, either.

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So much for us having “free will” to decide to have Faith in Jesus.

The Bible has many, many more references on this subject but, in the interest of brevity, I have only listed and commented on a few.

The bottom line is that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve who committed the original sin which, as the Bible tells us, continues to pass down through all generations. We are sinful by our very nature but God, in His sovereignty, chooses to save some, but not all, of us. Our Faith comes as a free gift from God. Pride and/or ignorance makes some people decide believe that they, without God’s help, have given Faith to themselves through free will. The Bible teaches us otherwise.

I hope this thread doesn’t get locked. It’s pretty interesting.

Well, ****. If this is true, then it doesn't really matter what any of us do or don't do. Hookers and blow all around.

 

[LOTRGOTDAWGFAN]

Not just that Christ is risen, but that it made possible for all of us to rise and join Him for eternal glory! It is the rising from the death Christ endured for each & every one of us, not in some abstract way but in the most personal, direct way to each & every one of us. He made that sacrifice knowing you intimately even before birth. He endured all that pain, suffering & worldly death for me & you specifically!

I know I often need to remind myself not to think of this so much as a "general pardon" as it is instead deeply personal and direct to all of His children. And yes, we are children of God. There is no greater love than what God the Father & Christ our Savior has for us, His children!

I hope you all are able to celebrate this greatest of gifts today feeling the warm, loving embrace of Our Lord & Savior in the deeply personal way it is given to you.

Happy Easter, everybody!

Always look on the bright side of life!!

 

[Mobile Bay]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

If we are dead (and we are as the Bible clearly states) we cannot have free will or any will at all, for that matter. Dead is dead. God makes those whom He has predestined alive together with Christ by His own Grace; not by our own free will.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

This is pretty straight-forward and unambiguous. *No one* can come unless the Father draws him. That pretty much rules out the ability to decide to believe in Jesus as our Savior through our own “free will”.


Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

This pretty much rules out free will - if you believe what God put in the Bible.

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

These are the quoted words of Jesus. I’m pretty sure He knew what He was talking about.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

On a related note, people cannot change their gender, either.

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So much for us having “free will” to decide to have Faith in Jesus.

The Bible has many, many more references on this subject but, in the interest of brevity, I have only listed and commented on a few.

The bottom line is that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve who committed the original sin which, as the Bible tells us, continues to pass down through all generations. We are sinful by our very nature but God, in His sovereignty, chooses to save some, but not all, of us. Our Faith comes as a free gift from God. Pride and/or ignorance makes some people decide believe that they, without God’s help, have given Faith to themselves through free will. The Bible teaches us otherwise.

I hope this thread doesn’t get locked. It’s pretty interesting.

Your quote from Ephesians is definitely meant to be read metaphorically.

I also give you john 6:40 "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Your part from Romans 3 doesn't rule out free will at all.

Romans 9:16 simply means without the sacrifice of Christ you cannot come to God no matter how hard you try.

I also give you Galatians 5:13 "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love"

John 7:17 "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love"

Pretty sure the guy who said that knew what he was talking about too.

 

[PhredPhantom]

I don't see how you come to that conclusion from reading those verses. We all ARE dead, that, I agree. But the gift of grace is available to everyone......not really sure how you can debate that.

Our Faith comes only as a free gift by the Grace of God. We do not decide on our own to have Faith because we are, as you acknowledged, dead in our sins.

To the point of Grace being available to everyone, the Bible just does not teach us that.

Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. (Jesus’ words)

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

*No one* can come to me *unless* the Father who sent me draws him. If God draws someone he or she will certainly come. God is infinitely powerful and His efforts never fail. If God does *not* draw someone they will *not* come.

The gift of Grace is *not* available to everyone; only to those whom He, in His infinite wisdom, chose before the foundation of the world. If you want to say, “That’s not fair!”, then consider that God was not obligated to save anyone. The fact that He chose to save some and not others is His sovereign right.

If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone would be saved and we know that is not the case. Jesus’ atonement for our sins was *perfectly* effective. No part of Jesus’ death was in vain. Jesus perfectly accomplished exactly what God sent Him to do. No more - no less.

God didn’t send Jesus to merely make it possible for people to be saved. God and Jesus are not up in Heaven right now sitting around thinking, “I went to the trouble of becoming Man on earth, living a perfect sinless life, and then dying on a cross to pay for their sins. Boy, I sure hope they decide to have Faith in me as their Savior but I’m not sure if they will or not. The suspense is killing me!”

No. Jesus’ death was specific and effective as you would expect from a sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being and Creator of all things.

 

[Mobile Bay]

Our Faith comes only as a free gift by the Grace of God. We do not decide on our own to have Faith because we are, as you acknowledged, dead in our sins.

To the point of Grace being available to everyone, the Bible just does not teach us that.

Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. (Jesus’ words)

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

*No one* can come to me *unless* the Father who sent me draws him. If God draws someone he or she will certainly come. God is infinitely powerful and His efforts never fail. If God does *not* draw someone they will *not* come.

The gift of Grace is *not* available to everyone; only to those whom He, in His infinite wisdom, chose before the foundation of the world. If you want to say, “That’s not fair!”, then consider that God was not obligated to save anyone. The fact that He chose to save some and not others is His sovereign right.

If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone would be saved and we know that is not the case. Jesus’ atonement for our sins was *perfectly* effective. No part of Jesus’ death was in vain. Jesus perfectly accomplished exactly what God sent Him to do. No more - no less.

God didn’t send Jesus to merely make it possible for people to be saved. God and Jesus are not up in Heaven right now sitting around thinking, “I went to the trouble of becoming Man on earth, living a perfect sinless life, and then dying on a cross to pay for their sins. Boy, I sure hope they decide to have Faith in me as their Savior but I’m not sure if they will or not. The suspense is killing me!”

No. Jesus’ death was specific and effective as you would expect from a sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being and Creator of all things.

You Calvinists have such a screwed up misconception of God its astounding. John Calvin did more to harm the word of God than anybody in history. He was truly a pawn of the enemy.

For God so loved the world. The entire world, and all his creation, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The sacrafice of Christ is sufficient to all men and Grace is a gift freely given to all those who ask for it

 

[3407Dewey]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

If we are dead (and we are as the Bible clearly states) we cannot have free will or any will at all, for that matter. Dead is dead. God makes those whom He has predestined alive together with Christ by His own Grace; not by our own free will.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

This is pretty straight-forward and unambiguous. *No one* can come unless the Father draws him. That pretty much rules out the ability to decide to believe in Jesus as our Savior through our own “free will”.


Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

This pretty much rules out free will - if you believe what God put in the Bible.

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

These are the quoted words of Jesus. I’m pretty sure He knew what He was talking about.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

On a related note, people cannot change their gender, either.

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So much for us having “free will” to decide to have Faith in Jesus.

The Bible has many, many more references on this subject but, in the interest of brevity, I have only listed and commented on a few.

The bottom line is that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve who committed the original sin which, as the Bible tells us, continues to pass down through all generations. We are sinful by our very nature but God, in His sovereignty, chooses to save some, but not all, of us. Our Faith comes as a free gift from God. Pride and/or ignorance makes some people decide believe that they, without God’s help, have given Faith to themselves through free will. The Bible teaches us otherwise.

I hope this thread doesn’t get locked. It’s pretty interesting.

Respectfully, did Adam and Eve have free will or were they forced into original sin? If they had the freedom to choose to sin, why did we inherit their sinful nature but not their free will?

I agree that this is an interesting thread and I hope it doesn’t get locked.

 

[Mobile Bay]

Respectfully, did Adam and Eve have free will or were they forced into original sin? If they had the freedom to choose to sin, why did we inherit their sinful nature but not their free will?

I agree that this is an interesting thread and I hope it doesn’t get locked.

Well Eve did not possess reason whereas the serpent did. So the serpent did convince her to sin.

Meanwhile Eve did temp Adam into sin. But has Shumley and others on here have said, it remains undefeated.

Sermon 'On the Fall of Man'

Words of Wesley engages the sermons of John Wesley in an innovative way. Read quote in full context and share with friends.

wordsofwesley.com

 

[mstateglfr]

So much for us having “free will” to decide to have Faith in Jesus.

The Bible has many, many more references on this subject but, in the interest of brevity, I have only listed and commented on a few.

The bottom line is that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve who committed the original sin which, as the Bible tells us, continues to pass down through all generations. We are sinful by our very nature but God, in His sovereignty, chooses to save some, but not all, of us. Our Faith comes as a free gift from God. Pride and/or ignorance makes some people decide believe that they, without God’s help, have given Faith to themselves through free will. The Bible teaches us otherwise.

I hope this thread doesn’t get locked. It’s pretty interesting.

Our Faith comes only as a free gift by the Grace of God. We do not decide on our own to have Faith because we are, as you acknowledged, dead in our sins.

To the point of Grace being available to everyone, the Bible just does not teach us that.

*No one* can come to me *unless* the Father who sent me draws him. If God draws someone he or she will certainly come. God is infinitely powerful and His efforts never fail. If God does *not* draw someone they will *not* come.

The gift of Grace is *not* available to everyone; only to those whom He, in His infinite wisdom, chose before the foundation of the world. If you want to say, “That’s not fair!”, then consider that God was not obligated to save anyone. The fact that He chose to save some and not others is His sovereign right.

If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone would be saved and we know that is not the case. Jesus’ atonement for our sins was *perfectly* effective. No part of Jesus’ death was in vain. Jesus perfectly accomplished exactly what God sent Him to do. No more - no less.

God didn’t send Jesus to merely make it possible for people to be saved. God and Jesus are not up in Heaven right now sitting around thinking, “I went to the trouble of becoming Man on earth, living a perfect sinless life, and then dying on a cross to pay for their sins. Boy, I sure hope they decide to have Faith in me as their Savior but I’m not sure if they will or not. The suspense is killing me!”

No. Jesus’ death was specific and effective as you would expect from a sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being and Creator of all things.

Its this sort of exclusivity that absolutely fascinates me.
The religion isnt even in agreement on the concept of how to get into Heaven. Do I just need to believe? Do I just need to repent my sins? Do I not even have a choice in the matter and it was all pre-determined by an omnipotent being?
Jesus died for our sins, but really only the sins of those who have been pre-selected to reach the gates?

Do those who dont believe, not believe because of free will or do they not believe because God pre-determined there would be a group who doesnt believe?
You mention we dont have free will to have faith in Jesus. Do we have free will in other aspects of life, or is all that also pre-determined? So much of life is impacted by fait, after all.

^ all those are genuine questions gathered in part from your posts and the thread's topic, and in part just refencing some of the obvious counters to classic blind faith.
I will say though, whatever you post in response will be met with a touch of skepticism since you apparently think all man literally came from Adam and Eve. Its that sort of thing that really makes it difficult to have a conversation where two sides respect each other's views. Both sides think the other is fundamentally wrong on how humans came to be. When one side's beliefs are rooted in their origin being true, everything after that will naturally also be contentious.

God chose, in perpetuity, who he will save and not save before the world was even created? None of this is us even having control over our own views/beliefs?

 

[WilCoDawg]

Its this sort of exclusivity that absolutely fascinates me.
The religion isnt even in agreement on the concept of how to get into Heaven. Do I just need to believe? Do I just need to repent my sins? Do I not even have a choice in the matter and it was all pre-determined by an omnipotent being?
Jesus died for our sins, but really only the sins of those who have been pre-selected to reach the gates?

Do those who dont believe, not believe because of free will or do they not believe because God pre-determined there would be a group who doesnt believe?
You mention we dont have free will to have faith in Jesus. Do we have free will in other aspects of life, or is all that also pre-determined? So much of life is impacted by fait, after all.

^ all those are genuine questions gathered in part from your posts and the thread's topic, and in part just refencing some of the obvious counters to classic blind faith.
I will say though, whatever you post in response will be met with a touch of skepticism since you apparently think all man literally came from Adam and Eve. Its that sort of thing that really makes it difficult to have a conversation where two sides respect each other's views. Both sides think the other is fundamentally wrong on how humans came to be. When one side's beliefs are rooted in their origin being true, everything after that will naturally also be contentious.

God chose, in perpetuity, who he will save and not save before the world was even created? None of this is us even having control over our own views/beliefs?

I’ll tell you my beliefs and how it has been explained to me on that last matter. God has indeed already decided on His “predetermined“ but He also allows those not pre-chosen to come to Him. That’s the best I can explain in my layman’s terms. Regardless of things like this that are ultimately trivial in my mind, I go to Him with the “child-like faith” where I trust in Him and try not to question but believe.

As to your other matter on Adam and Eve, the Big 3 all believe this so you reject all of their origin belief. And if we’re being honest, it’s easier to believe than all of mankind coming from some single-cell organism that eventually crawled out of the sea. Even believing in the Big Bang without a creator causing the bang is unfathomable.

Lastly, I’m answering your question, not presenting a counterpoint in a debate so please don’t bother writing your usual novella unless you’re just seeking attention.

 

[mstateglfr]

I’ll tell you my beliefs and how it has been explained to me on that last matter. God has indeed already decided on His “predetermined“ but He also allows those not pre-chosen to come to Him. That’s the best I can explain in my layman’s terms. Regardless of things like this that are ultimately trivial in my mind, I go to Him with the “child-like faith” where I trust in Him and try not to question but believe.

As to your other matter on Adam and Eve, the Big 3 all believe this so you reject all of their origin belief. And if we’re being honest, it’s easier to believe than all of mankind coming from some single-cell organism that eventually crawled out of the sea. Even believing in the Big Bang without a creator causing the bang is unfathomable.

Lastly, I’m answering your question, not presenting a counterpoint in a debate so please don’t bother writing your usual novella unless you’re just seeking attention.

I asked genuine questions and pointed out genuine inconsistencies. You responded to the questions with honesty and provided differing views.
Seems like really healthy communication.

The predetermination still doesnt make sense to me, mostly since the level of it seems to vary depending on the person who is citing their belief and/or the religion they follow. Only 1 is ultimately right...right? Not sure how we as a species managed to come up with so many incorrect versions.
Also, its always seemed like following what is written is a way to live a 'good' and more meaningful life. If its all pre-determined, then whats the point in making the effort to live a good and more meaningful life?...those who were apparently chosen to reach Heaven before time even existed will drift upwards when they die, and everyone else will sink down when they die. But since that contradicts what others think, then it all actually does matter. And we get back to the reality that only 1 view is ultimately right.

As for Adam and Eve, the 'big 3' came up with that before they could even explain what stars were. The whole 'original sin' thing isnt shared by Islam or Judaism. Thats kinda key to the origin story for Christianity.
The Biblical books you are referencing as historical fact are anything but. They were written by man based on stories passed down for, well I honestly dont even know how long. They were also argued over and voted on for inclusion/exclusion to being official script.
Was man created by clay? Was man created in God's image? Who is 'us' when God declared man should be made?


I dont know how the universe appeared. I dont know how bacteria came to be on the Earth(though Ive learned the theory many times over). Perhaps it was all created by a being(God). Maybe He created it only 6000 years ago and moved on. Maybe He created it and stays involved in every little detail of everyone's day from the beginning of time. Maybe He created it 4.5 billion years ago by seeding the planet with a touch of bacteria and just the right distance from the sun, yada yada.
God's existence and Evolution can co-exist if you allow it to.



Perhaps this was a novella, I dont know. The thread has been interesting, as I really like reading the views of everyone when it comes to belief. Its surprising to see how varied beliefs are, even though this is very much a Christian dominant message board that is tied to a University in a religious dominant region of the country.
I have really enjoyed reading posts and people have taken a lot of time to type out their views on this issue. It is a topic which deserves thought and time when discussed. This sort of thing shouldnt be filled with 5 word posts only.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Know what the only difference is between Christianity, and Judaism and Islam? The crucifixion. That's it.

That should be fairly eye-opening to the rule-mongers in all 3 of those those major religions. I don't think we're far off from seeing true Christianity just being a minority among all 3 of the others. Mainstream Christianity will be more like a Christian 'culture', that we see in many places, especially in the South, encompassing all the denominations, Catholicism, etc. True Christianity will be more of a smaller group of people truly committed to missions but disgusted by the state of the church, and probably persecuted.

I don't know enough about where Mormonism comes in on that spectrum, maybe @GloryDawg can share more. Hinduism is sort of its own thing. Not sure on Buddhism either.

I don't think the dying part was the key focal point. We all can do that...

 

[horshack.sixpack]

You might want to be careful about saying that the Inspired Word of God in the Bible is “mistaken”.


Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

So, heavy on predestination, but certain that you are one of the chosen?

 

[Pars]

I refuse to believe in a God who creates beings just to send a select few to heaven and damn the rest to hell.
Christ was the light of the world not a spotlight on a select few.
Died for all not the lucky lottery winners of pre time.