I will admit I hate the thought of predestination . I hate the idea that some are just never going to believe and it was designed that way. To be honest, I don’t really know if I believe that is the case or not. There is certainly scripture that indicates predestination to be the way and other that indicate heaven is available for anyone who repents and believes Jesus is the only way to heaven. As much as I don’t like it, I do have to admit that if you believe God is all powerful then you kinda have to believe he already knows who will believe and who won’t. It’s a complicated topic for me and honestly an uncomfortable one as well. But at the end of the day, the people i know who don’t believe, really have no desire to. So, I’m not sure if they care if they are predestined to go to heaven or hell.
Christ is risen! If you haven't already, please reflect on what we celebrate
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I will admit I hate the thought of predestination . I hate the idea that some are just never going to believe and it was designed that way. To be honest, I don’t really know if I believe that is the case or not. There is certainly scripture that indicates predestination to be the way and other that indicate heaven is available for anyone who repents and believes Jesus is the only way to heaven. As much as I don’t like it, I do have to admit that if you believe God is all powerful then you kinda have to believe he already knows who will believe and who won’t. It’s a complicated topic for me and honestly an uncomfortable one as well. But at the end of the day, the people i know who don’t believe, really have no desire to. So, I’m not sure if they care if they are predestined to go to heaven or hell.
I surely don't have all the answers. But everyone can ask questions.
If only those "drawn" to him are the chosen ones, someone explain Barrabas. Was he chosen, or did he display faith at the very end when it counted? What about the prostitute Rahab? Was she chosen, or did she make a decision? It makes me wonder about whether a robber/murderer and a prostitute lived lives of sin while being "chosen", or they made some good judgement decisions apart from their typical nature.
Judas was certainly chosen. Did his free will of choice squander that?
If only those "drawn" to him are the chosen ones, someone explain Barrabas. Was he chosen, or did he display faith at the very end when it counted? What about the prostitute Rahab? Was she chosen, or did she make a decision? It makes me wonder about whether a robber/murderer and a prostitute lived lives of sin while being "chosen", or they made some good judgement decisions apart from their typical nature.
Judas was certainly chosen. Did his free will of choice squander that?
I've always struggled with the idea of predestination. If God has predetermined who is saved and who isn't, why does Jesus give us guidance on how we should live our lives? For that matter, if it is all predetermined, why even bother sending Jesus to live and die among us?
With the caveat that I'm not remotely a biblical scholar, I'm not even sure that the Bible does clearly state that we are "dead." At least not in the passages above. Ephesians 2:1 and Ephesians 2:5 use past tense - "were dead" - which to me indicates that we aren't "dead" anymore. And then the rest of 2:5 seems to indicate that Jesus made us all "alive" again, without really specifying that only one group has been made alive. In other words, Jesus gave us a Do Over and, if we choose to follow him, we have a chance to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I realize this will be tantamount to heresy to many people, but maybe they're not all incorrect. We tend to ascribe human-like motivations and characteristics to God even though his/her (see, even I'm not immune) very nature is beyond all human understanding. God is infinite and all-powerful, so the idea that he/she would create an entire planet and all the people on it and only give one group the "right" answer seems, to me, to be imposing limits on a creator who is limitless.
My view has tended to be something like this... The two great commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor (Matthew 22: 37-40). Almost every religion has some version of "love your neighbor" as one of its central tenets. Perhaps God putting us all on this planet together with differing belief structures is his/her way of giving us the opportunity to put that commandment into practice.
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All very well said.
Giving one group the 'right' answer and to hell with all the rest is representative of quite a vengeful God. OT style and all.
I am just not even sure why an all knowing ever existing all seeing being would go thru all the trouble of creating a universe, solar system, world, and everything that makes up this world, if they were only going to let a small % of the population into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Like...why? Why do all that? Seems not just vengeful, but a waste of time. Its even a waste of time for a being that has always existed and always will exist.
People miss the point of Christianity as well os other faiths. It is not about getting to heaven. It is about the life we live here. It is about living a full life. The only way to truly do this is to put others before yourself. The rules arent set to make someone miserable. Quite the opposite. The Bible says sin is fun for a season. It is. If I cheated on my wife I’m sure it would be great in the moment, but it would destroy my long term true happiness. If one follows the rules laid out in the Bible (or most other religious texts for that matter), ultimately they will he happy and they will make those around them happier. The problem with religion is it usually misses the forrest for the trees. I have nothing against the healthy theological debate we are having above, but ultimately where you stand on those issues has nothing to do with the things that are most important.
And here I was thinking we'd all come out of this thread firmly all Calvinist, or not.***
It seems to me that the issue we disagree on stems from not understanding the Order of Salvation. God first gives the free gift of faith to those whom He predestined and foreknew before the beginning of the world. Since all men (I’m using the term “men” to mean all people including women) are dead in their sins, they cannot decide on their own to have faith unless God first gives them that gift. Unsaved people do not decide on their own to have faith because, being dead in their sin, they cannot. God first gives his elect the free gift of faith and only then can they call on God for Salvation.
It is true that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life but God’s gift of faith precedes belief in Him.
Secondly, Jesus’ death on the cross certainly would have been sufficient for every person in history if that was who He died for but He didn’t. He died only for his elect. No part of his death was in vain. None of it was “wasted” on anyone the Father had not given Him.
God’s free gift of Grace is surely a gift given freely to those who ask for it. The difference is that no one will ask for it unless God first calls them.
Finally, fortunately for us, we do not have to understand the Order of Salvation in order to be saved. It is there in the Bible for all to see but is not a requirement for Salvation.
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So, if I'm saved out of order who takes the automatic out, me or the Lord?*
This has been an interesting thread. I don't concern myself with the dogma of religion. Perhaps I should, but my faith and relationship with Christ, whom I see as a necessary conduit (due to His sacrifice) to God, are what's important to me personally.
Semi related, I stumbled across this a few weeks ago about all the different types of Christianity. Who knew there were Protestants before the Reformation?!
Uh, yeah it is. Living a full life here is a byproduct of having a relationship with Christ.
It's sort of like fasting. It's meant to bring you closer to the Lord via the discomfort. But there's also a host of health benefits that can come with it.
Putting others before yourself is the most important part of having a relationship with Christ. You and I are not disagreeing here. Semantics. Getting to heaven should be a byproduct of the life you live and that relationship. It shouldn’t be the only focus
I don’t have Biblical references to prove it but my personal belief is that Adam and Eve did have free will until they sinned against God by eating of the one tree which God specifically told them not to do. I believe that once they had sinned they were tainted by it for the rest of their lives and they passed it down to all their descendants as God tells us in the second Commandment and other places in the Bible.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
On a related note, I have often wondered how hard it might have been for Adam and Eve to recognize a lie when they heard it. Up until the point where Satan deceived them they had only talked to God and each other and thus would have had no experience with lies. In their conversations with God they had always heard only Truth. Also since, at that point, they had not ever sinned, they also would have only spoken truth to each other. I don’t have any answers about this; I’ve just wondered about it.
You need to read the works of C.S. Lewis, but more specifically his 'The Space Trilogy'.
From the apostle Paul in Romans.
Romans 10:9-10
“That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. ”
You can be a horrible person, but if at some point the above occurs, your life will be different, you will want it to be different, and you’ll be saved. Paul is a fine example of this.
Genissis and Exodus are origin tales of the Israelite. They are not factual and not even meant to be taken as literal truth.
That being said, if there was an Adam he was with Eve. Eve being a woman, Adam had many experiences with lies.
The free will vs predestination debate is beyond human comprehension. These are not mutually exclusive terms. They are both simultaneously true.
If a human has free will (and I believe this to be true), then their choices in life matter. But if an omniscient God creates humans, and He already knows in advance who will choose Him and who won’t (which I also believe to be true), then there also is a predestination aspect that is also true. God created humans who He knew in advance would reject Him. In one sense they had free will, but in another sense….did they really? The omniscient nature of God blows up the equation you are trying to solve and the logic of all this becomes irreconcilable to the human brain.
If a human has free will (and I believe this to be true), then their choices in life matter. But if an omniscient God creates humans, and He already knows in advance who will choose Him and who won’t (which I also believe to be true), then there also is a predestination aspect that is also true. God created humans who He knew in advance would reject Him. In one sense they had free will, but in another sense….did they really? The omniscient nature of God blows up the equation you are trying to solve and the logic of all this becomes irreconcilable to the human brain.
Yawnnnn!!! I'm so glad i let go of these mythologies a long time ago. So much happier and free now!!!
Thanks for replying, Phred, and for engaging in the discussion.
I, too, think that Adam and Eve had free will, and that this was the basis of their guilt/blame. I can't hold someone responsible for something that is outside of their control. In the same way, I don't believe that God would a just judge if he acted that way. In other words, Adam and Eve were guilty not because they believed the lie but because they could have rejected it.
If we inherited their sin, I think we also inherited their free will.
Yes, we are disagreeing. Big time. You cannot earn your way into heaven.
That's all fine and good, but when you approach death, you'll have to rationalize the idea that you will simply be reduced to infinite blackness.....nothing......zip. You have to ask yourself what your relationship with the higher power will be.
I'm perfectly fine being reduced to nothing after i die. The latter part is a trick statement: there is no such thing as a higher power, and I'm fine with that. beats the heck out of play worshiping some middle east sky daddy in a long list of worldwide sky daddies.
The theological discussion can continue, but the belittling comments about one's faith will not continue. Got it?
But if there is a higher power, then there is a Hell and a non-believer wont have to accept being reduced to infinite blackness, they will have to accept a quick trip to the fires of Hell.
If there is no higher power, then we are all reduced to infinite blackness, and the only difference is that while alive some people accepted that while others built an entire way of life around not accepting it.
I am not saying I know what happens after death and I am not demeaning either approach. I just dont think you can have it both ways(and it looks like you are claiming both can exist).
...unless you are saying 'Hell' is infinite blackness. That very well could be correct.
Or perhaps we are the only being on this planet advanced enough to worry about the inevitability of our own mortality and also feel we are too important to not be here, so we created millennia worth of stories to help us feel more comfortable with the complexity that comes from advanced knowledge and understanding that death is coming.
I certainly am not bold enough to claim that I know what is to come and which approach is true.
What I do know is that if God is OT style vengeful, as many here claim, and He already decided who will make it to Heaven before Man even existed, I clearly was left off that list. Well that sucks, but OK then.
Says Lord of the Rings Game of Thrones Dawgfan? That's uh... that's interesting.
That would mean all moral queries are trick statements because there is no such thing as moral truths either. Moral beliefs aren't empirical. They never will and never can be subjected to any measurement whether they are thought to be based on the authority of a deity or completely secular.
Someone can enjoy a subject as fictional entertainment while not wanting it in their life or not believing in it.
One can enjoy a movie about car chases, bridges collapsing, and bombs going off while not wanting that in their actual life.
That’s the problem with most atheists… they have such a disdain for something they think does not exists.
Yes, you did say 'interesting'. You said it after saying 'thats uh...' which, to me, showed you were pointing out what you viewed as a quirky viewpoint. Quirky can mean inconsistent, hypocritical, etc.
I am not sure why you would type 'thats uh...' before, but if it was for a different reason then please allow me to apologize for misinterpreting your post.
No. We aren’t. I never said you had to earn your way into heaven. I said the most important thing about having a relationship with Christ is putting others before yourself. Having that relationship with Christ should make you want to do that, and putting others first brings you closer to Christ. Like I said, faith like a child and don’t be a d*ck.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast
The thief on the cross did no good deeds, wasn't baptized, etc. He had faith and asked for mercy mere minutes before his death.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast
The thief on the cross did no good deeds, wasn't baptized, etc. He had faith and asked for mercy mere minutes before his death.
To quote Mark Twain, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
Of course the process of getting from alive to dead could be a bit grizzly.
Very true. But because he didnt pursue a relationship with Christ prior to that and obviously never put others before Himself he was never truly happy in the life on this world.
Respectfully, this is not Biblical. The life that we live does not determine our Salvation. Good Works are a by-product of our relationship with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I'm not sure I even understand your question but the fact is that we have no control over the Order of Salvation. Just like when a home run occurs in baseball the order is always the same in that the ball is pitched, the batter hits the ball with the bat, and the inertia of the ball along with the angle of trajectory carries the ball over the fence. The ball cannot be hit before the pitcher pitches it and so on and so forth.
When Salvation occurs, it always occurs in the same order. The first step is always the free Gift of Grace from God.
The above is why I hate religion. I have been told multiple times how wrong I am that the main focus of Christianity is to show love to your fellow man. Considering that is literally what Jesus spent his entire life on this planet doing, I feel comfortable in my stance. And if I’m not 100% right? What does it matter? Showing love is still pretty damn important. Forrest for the trees.
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