Christ is risen! If you haven't already, please reflect on what we celebrate

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PhredPhantom

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The free will vs predestination debate is beyond human comprehension. These are not mutually exclusive terms. They are both simultaneously true.

If a human has free will (and I believe this to be true), then their choices in life matter. But if an omniscient God creates humans, and He already knows in advance who will choose Him and who won’t (which I also believe to be true), then there also is a predestination aspect that is also true. God created humans who He knew in advance would reject Him. In one sense they had free will, but in another sense….did they really? The omniscient nature of God blows up the equation you are trying to solve and the logic of all this becomes irreconcilable to the human brain.

WARNING: Long discussion - skip over it if you aren't interested because it has no practical effect on Salvation.

This is an idea that has brought forth much discussion and debate for centuries. I did a little research and found an interesting explanation for consideration in the Albert Barnes Commentary. It discusses the first part of Romans 8:29-30.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Here is an excerpt from Barnes' Commentary:

For whom he did foreknow - The word used here προέγνω proegnō has been the subject of almost endless disputes in regard to its meaning in this place. The literal meaning of the word cannot be a matter of dispute. It denotes properly to “know beforehand;” to be acquainted with future events. But whether it means here simply to know that certain persons would become Christians; or to ordain, and constitute them to be Christians, and to be saved, has been a subject of almost endless discussion. Without entering at large into an investigation of the word, perhaps the following remarks may throw light on it.
(1) It does not here have reference to all the human family; for all are not, and have not, been conformed to the image of his Son. It has reference therefore only to those who would become Christians, and be saved.
(2) It implies “certain knowledge.” It was certainly foreseen, in some way, that they would believe, and be saved. There is nothing, therefore, in regard to them that is contingent, or subject to doubt in the divine Mind, since it was certainly foreknown.
(3) The event which was thus foreknown must have been, for some cause, certain and fixed; since an uncertain event could not be possibly foreknown. To talk of a foreknowing a contingent event, that is, of foreknowing an event as certain which may or may not exist, is an absurdity.
(4) In what way such an event became certain is not determined by the use of this word. But it must have been somehow in connection with a divine appointment or arrangement, since in no other way can it be conceived to be certain. While the word used here, therefore, does not of necessity mean to decree, yet its use supposes that there was a purpose or plan; and the phrase is an explanation of what the apostle had just said, that it was “according to the purpose of God” that they were called. This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, “on what grounds” God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved. It simply affirms the fact; and the mode in which those who will believe were designated, must be determined from other sources. This passage simply teaches that he knew them; that his eye was fixed on them; that he regarded them as to be conformed to his Son; and that, thus knowing them, he designated them to eternal life. The Syriac renders it in accordance with this interpretation: “And from the beginning he knew them, and sealed them with the image of his Son,” etc. As, however, none would believe but by the influences of his Spirit, it follows that they were not foreknown on account of any faith which they would themselves exercise, or any goodworks which they would themselves perform, but according to the purpose or plan of God himself.


(PhredPhantom again)
So, while this commentary certainly does not settle the question, it provides a little more insight into the logic included in the Bible verse.
 

ckDOG

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The above is why I hate religion. I have been told multiple times how wrong I am that the main focus of Christianity is to show love to your fellow man. Considering that is literally what Jesus spent his entire life on this planet doing, I feel comfortable in my stance. And if I’m not 100% right? What does it matter? Showing love is still pretty damn important. Forrest for the trees.
Some folks focus on what was directly attributed to Jesus through the Gospels. Some folks focus on what Paul said about what Jesus said and his thoughts on what the Christian church should be and in certain contexts and audiences. Label what you want. I tend to spend more time and emphasis on the Gospels as yourself.
 
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mstateglfr

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The life that we live does not determine our Salvation. Good Works are a by-product of our relationship with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
I get that salvation comes by the Grace of God, but if the live we live doesnt determine our Salvation, then anything we do or dont do is meaningless, from an afterlife perspective.
Murderers, rapists, etc may receive salvation by the Grace of God. Mentors, leaders in communities, examples for how to live a responsible and ethical life- nope, none of that matters.

Good works can be a by-product of our relationship with the Trinity, or it could just be a by-product of wanting to help improve the world around you.

Selling your view to the world is a tough row to hoe.
 

DoggieDaddy13

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The above is why I hate religion. I have been told multiple times how wrong I am that the main focus of Christianity is to show love to your fellow man. Considering that is literally what Jesus spent his entire life on this planet doing, I feel comfortable in my stance. And if I’m not 100% right? What does it matter? Showing love is still pretty damn important. Forrest for the trees.
 

Ranchdawg

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I asked genuine questions and pointed out genuine inconsistencies. You responded to the questions with honesty and provided differing views.
Seems like really healthy communication.

The predetermination still doesnt make sense to me, mostly since the level of it seems to vary depending on the person who is citing their belief and/or the religion they follow. Only 1 is ultimately right...right? Not sure how we as a species managed to come up with so many incorrect versions.
Also, its always seemed like following what is written is a way to live a 'good' and more meaningful life. If its all pre-determined, then whats the point in making the effort to live a good and more meaningful life?...those who were apparently chosen to reach Heaven before time even existed will drift upwards when they die, and everyone else will sink down when they die. But since that contradicts what others think, then it all actually does matter. And we get back to the reality that only 1 view is ultimately right.

As for Adam and Eve, the 'big 3' came up with that before they could even explain what stars were. The whole 'original sin' thing isnt shared by Islam or Judaism. Thats kinda key to the origin story for Christianity.
The Biblical books you are referencing as historical fact are anything but. They were written by man based on stories passed down for, well I honestly dont even know how long. They were also argued over and voted on for inclusion/exclusion to being official script.
Was man created by clay? Was man created in God's image? Who is 'us' when God declared man should be made?


I dont know how the universe appeared. I dont know how bacteria came to be on the Earth(though Ive learned the theory many times over). Perhaps it was all created by a being(God). Maybe He created it only 6000 years ago and moved on. Maybe He created it and stays involved in every little detail of everyone's day from the beginning of time. Maybe He created it 4.5 billion years ago by seeding the planet with a touch of bacteria and just the right distance from the sun, yada yada.
God's existence and Evolution can co-exist if you allow it to.



Perhaps this was a novella, I dont know. The thread has been interesting, as I really like reading the views of everyone when it comes to belief. Its surprising to see how varied beliefs are, even though this is very much a Christian dominant message board that is tied to a University in a religious dominant region of the country.
I have really enjoyed reading posts and people have taken a lot of time to type out their views on this issue. It is a topic which deserves thought and time when discussed. This sort of thing shouldnt be filled with 5 word posts only.
I, too, have enjoyed reading this thread. I've read through the entire Bible multiple times and I learn something new each time I read through it. I'm amazed by the prophecies that came true in the old testament and the links between all the books of the Bible. I do believe the science that the world and the universe is older than 6000 years and I also believe in evolution. Anyone that doesn't believe needs to think about simple germs, bacteria and viruses. They all evolve at a much faster rate than other living things. The flu and COVID evolve and we end up with different vaccinations to account for it. I do not believe that man evolved from apes or other man like creatures. I do believe that God instilled the ability to evolve in all creatures and plants. The appendix used to be a second stomach, wisdom teeth were necessary but that is changing. The Bible clearly states that a day to God is like a thousand years to man (probably the largest number known to man at the time it was penned). God is also not bound by time. When God created man the "us" was the Godhead of God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

I'm always amazed when self proclaimed "learned" people look down their noses at Christians. Most Hollywood depictions of Christians are southerners that want to dominate others. The majority of Christians are nowhere like their dipictions but there are some that do fit so . . .
Here's a discussion about the Bible from a former atheist that took the time to analyze the Bible for himself.

The Bible
 

PhredPhantom

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Thanks for replying, Phred, and for engaging in the discussion.
I, too, think that Adam and Eve had free will, and that this was the basis of their guilt/blame. I can't hold someone responsible for something that is outside of their control. In the same way, I don't believe that God would a just judge if he acted that way. In other words, Adam and Eve were guilty not because they believed the lie but because they could have rejected it.
If we inherited their sin, I think we also inherited their free will.

My best understanding is that they only had free will up until they committed the original sin. After that they (and their descendants) were tainted by sin forever without the Grace of God through Christ. Thus, as their descendants, we are all sinful until we are saved by Jesus.

Also, while direct disobedience of a direct command from God to not eat that particular fruit was certainly a sin deserving of Hell, it would seem to me that the main part of the sin was not necessarily the physical eating of the fruit, but was the intention to eat is so they could be equal to / as smart as God.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”
Gen 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden,
Gen 3:3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
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Edited for: spelling
 
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PRAVan1996

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I do not believe that man evolved from apes or other man like creatures. I do believe that God instilled the ability to evolve in all creatures and plants.
Wait, so you believe in evolution as a general concept but not human evolution? I'm not trying to criticize or argue here. I'm genuinely curious about how you see things.
 

mstateglfr

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Wait, so you believe in evolution as a general concept but not human evolution? I'm not trying to criticize or argue here. I'm genuinely curious about how you see things.
He is saying he believes evolution can happen within a species, but that each species was initially created by God.

- I think that means God either had Homo Sapien living alongside Homo Erectus for millions of years, and Neanderthal also co-existed.
- Or it means God has, thru time, added various species. So Homo Erectus was created by God 2+ million years ago, and then Neanderthal was created by God .5 million years ago. And then God comes back and adds Homo Sapien(modern humans) 200,000 years ago.

Not sure which would be the way things happened, using his views.
 

DoggieDaddy13

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Gentlemen, you're all missing the point.

Have you all forgotten the Bible verse that directly pertains to our Baseball Team?

Genesis 1:1 "In the big inning..."
"...we walked the lead-off batter and hit the second batter."
1:2 "The third batter hit what looked to be a sure double play, but Forsythe bobbled the ball and, yea, verily the bases were loaded."
1:3 "It was not good. And got a helluva a lot worse."
 

dorndawg

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Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast

The thief on the cross did no good deeds, wasn't baptized, etc. He had faith and asked for mercy mere minutes before his death.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

dorndawg

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glfr 3:45pm
"I wish I knew scripture well enough to quote it and pretend to really understand what it means."
It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons.
- C.S. Lewis
 

horshack.sixpack

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It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons.
- C.S. Lewis
Way to spoil all the fun.***
 

IBleedMaroonDawg

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I kept myself from opening this thread because I could imagine the same arguments were being made by the usual suspects and I was right. I was even more shocked that the same arguments about Christianity I had heard years ago were once again being presented in a debate thread that started with a good faith wish for all Christians that supposedly believed that Christ rose from the grave.

Pretty much the same reasons why I quit looking for God in the churches around me long ago. Found my own personal place. Later.
 

PhredPhantom

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The above is why I hate religion. I have been told multiple times how wrong I am that the main focus of Christianity is to show love to your fellow man. Considering that is literally what Jesus spent his entire life on this planet doing, I feel comfortable in my stance. And if I’m not 100% right? What does it matter? Showing love is still pretty damn important. Forrest for the trees.
Showing love for one's fellow man is great; lots of atheists and other non-Christians do just that but, unless they are later saved, they aren't going to Heaven when they die - they're going straight to Hell.
 

PhredPhantom

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I get that salvation comes by the Grace of God, but if the live we live doesnt determine our Salvation, then anything we do or dont do is meaningless, from an afterlife perspective.
Murderers, rapists, etc may receive salvation by the Grace of God. Mentors, leaders in communities, examples for how to live a responsible and ethical life- nope, none of that matters.

Good works can be a by-product of our relationship with the Trinity, or it could just be a by-product of wanting to help improve the world around you.

Selling your view to the world is a tough row to hoe.
Your first paragraph, read and taken literally, is correct.

Second paragraph: Good works can be both or either. They are not mutually exclusive.

Last sentence: Fortunately, I don't have to sell it but in order to Glorify God, I am happy to share Biblical truth. When people are saved, they can begin to understand it and use it to God's Glory, too. (To be clear, I'm not saying that I am in any way responsible for anyone's Salvation.)
 

She Mate Me

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The theological discussion can continue, but the belittling comments about one's faith will not continue. Got it?

Not sure I see how simply stating a difference in the way one sees things as belittling another's faith. If faith is that fragile (which I understand, because it takes many leaps), then questions are perfectly understandable.
 

OG Goat Holder

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Not sure I see how simply stating a difference in the way one sees things as belittling another's faith. If faith is that fragile (which I understand, because it takes many leaps), then questions are perfectly understandable.
Yeah I didn’t take it that way either. His viewpoint is what it is.
 

PhredPhantom

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Well, given that the Bible does not anywhere talk about going to heaven, this seems like a wasted disagreement...
Mat_6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Mat_18:3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The word "Heaven" appears 492 times in the Bible in 463 verses. The two I've listed here talk specifically about going to Heaven and there are many more.
 

HailStout

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Showing love for one's fellow man is great; lots of atheists and other non-Christians do just that but, unless they are later saved, they aren't going to Heaven when they die - they're going straight to Hell.
I’m tired of being told that being good to others isn’t really that important to Christianity, so….

1681354458391.gif
edited to add: not sure why it attributed that quote to you, dorn.
 

PhredPhantom

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@PhredPhantom never got an answer to my questions about missions. What is your viewpoint there?
Sorry I didn't respond before: I'll try to give you my best understanding here. I believe it is related to your question in post #15 about the Great Commission.

In post #45 you asked, "Do you think that missions is a waste of time?"

Your answer, I believe, is found in the Great Commission which comes from Matthew 28:16-20 as listed below.

Mat 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Missionaries and other Lay People are just one of the things God uses to help people understand about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as well as to have knowledge of Salvation. God uses missionaries and others to witness to others about these things. Not all people are called by God to believe even after they have heard the Good News. Those who are called by God to have Faith and be saved, will in every case come to have Saving Faith. Missionaries and other witnesses are just the messengers. People who are called to be missionaries need our support; first in prayer and secondly financially. Those are only some of the ways we can glorify God.
 

PhredPhantom

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I’m tired of being told that being good to others isn’t really that important to Christianity, so….

View attachment 327444
edited to add: not sure why it attributed that quote to you, dorn.
I never said being good to others isn't really important to Christianity.

It is not a requirement for Salvation.

It is important for Christians to glorify God by being good to others during our time on Earth and is usually a by-product of our relationship with God.
 

mstateglfr

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When people are saved, they can begin to understand it and use it to God's Glory, too. (To be clear, I'm not saying that I am in any way responsible for anyone's Salvation.)
How does someone know they are saved though? From what you've posted in this thread, God is the only arbiter of salvation, nothing we do in this world will get us into Heaven or keep us out of Heaven, and God already decided who will get into future Heaven back when He created man.

So considering all that, can anyone then know they are saved while here on Earth?
 
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HailStout

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How does someone know they are saved though? From what you've posted in this thread, God is the only arbiter of salvation, nothing we do in this world will get us into Heaven or keep us out of Heaven, and God already decided who will get into future Heaven back when He created man.

So considering all that, can anyone then know they are saved while here on Earth?
Once again, this is why i hate religion
 

PhredPhantom

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How does someone know they are saved though? From what you've posted in this thread, God is the only arbiter of salvation, nothing we do in this world will get us into Heaven or keep us out of Heaven, and God already decided who will get into future Heaven back when He created man.

So considering all that, can anyone then know they are saved while here on Earth?
The first indication is that you *sincerely* believe. If this is a new experience to you and it’s not just a passing wish, your attitude towards God and life will change. You will have a “hunger” for learning more about Jesus and what He has done for you. Sometimes you may even doubt your sincerity but as you grow in faith your doubts will disappear.
 

Lettuce

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Living in a town where locals committed human sacrifice and worshipping the sun was common practice…only 300 years ago, and after studying the South American and central American early cultures….along with the Mississippian moundbuilding cultures …..

Drawing the timeline of current events and what seems to be a common “grace” spread among the world from 3000bc-1000ad….

Im catholic…..although, the old culture of “sun” “sun of god” and the knowledge of the cosmos….just leaves me thinking that all religions are centered around the Sun. The giver of life. The Alpha and Omega.

After all is said and done, if life on earth survives until the last day before the sun engulfs us….wouldn’t all the sun worshippers be correct?!

Have they been correct all along?

Does our maker reside in the sun? How ironic would it be if we all circled back into the center of our solar system?

Think of it as each solar system being a cell …inside of a greater being…galaxies…comparing them to an oratory
 

Ranchdawg

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Living in a town where locals committed human sacrifice and worshipping the sun was common practice…only 300 years ago, and after studying the South American and central American early cultures….along with the Mississippian moundbuilding cultures …..

Drawing the timeline of current events and what seems to be a common “grace” spread among the world from 3000bc-1000ad….

Im catholic…..although, the old culture of “sun” “sun of god” and the knowledge of the cosmos….just leaves me thinking that all religions are centered around the Sun. The giver of life. The Alpha and Omega.

After all is said and done, if life on earth survives until the last day before the sun engulfs us….wouldn’t all the sun worshippers be correct?!

Have they been correct all along?

Does our maker reside in the sun? How ironic would it be if we all circled back into the center of our solar system?

Think of it as each solar system being a cell …inside of a greater being…galaxies…comparing them to an oratory
Indians in America paid homage to the Great Spirit. Deep inside we all know that there is a Supreme Being. I believe Jesus was the answer God gave mankind when confusion abounded. He is prophesied all through the old Testament. He was sent to be an example of how we should live and to provide a path to righteousness. By our fruits we are known ( faith, hope, love and charity). Without him our righteousness is filthy rags. Golfer asked, "how do you know you are saved"? Jesus said many will say they were saved but he will tell them depart from me, I don't know you. Jesus despised legalism and condemned the Jewish leaders for their pomp and ceremony while sinning daily. I get upset when I see a "Christian" brow beating nonbelievers. They are repeating the same sin Jesus condemned. Jesus didn't give us this example. He demonstrated love for fellow man and simply told the disciples to shake the dust off their feet when they encountered nonbelievers and move on to the next town. This thread is a good example of what he envisioned for Christian dialog.
 
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hdogg

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I kept myself from opening this thread because I could imagine the same arguments were being made by the usual suspects and I was right. I was even more shocked that the same arguments about Christianity I had heard years ago were once again being presented in a debate thread that started with a good faith wish for all Christians that supposedly believed that Christ rose from the grave.

Pretty much the same reasons why I quit looking for God in the churches around me long ago. Found my own personal place. Later.

I had the same thought. I stopped debating about predistination over 25 years ago. I realized that at the end of the day, it just doesn't matter, and takes away from stuff that does matter. I also realized it's exhausting to debate this stuff and I don't care enough.
But yes I did care enough to scan through about 1/3 of this to realize all the debates are still going and remind me why I stopped.
 

preacher_dawg

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Ok, fine. As a Presbyterian pastor and Calvinist, I'll stick my toe in the water. 2 things.

1) I always tell my congregation to look at the tone of a passage. I hold to predestination, but almost every single passage of Scripture that deals with it is meant to be encouraging not really in your face. There are passages of Scripture which are more righteous anger tone about them, such as much of Galatians, but why would I should I have a harsher tone than the Bible does when they are meant to be encouraging? I urge you to believe in them as it is Scripture, but I refuse to debate if we can't agree in another poster's words, "don't be a ****"

2) The main thrust of Scripture is to make Christ known. It is not my intention to make every person in my congregation a Calvinist. In fact, there are some that aren't. I strive to teach faithfully from Scripture and from my viewpoint, and I hope they see what I see from Scripture, but I would rather they be Armenians who share their faith than Calvinists who don't share their faith. Again, fantastic if they are Calvinists who share their faith, but predestination is not the main thrust of the Bible. The Gospel is and telling others about Him is the whole point of the Bible.
 
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WilCoDawg

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The above is why I hate religion. I have been told multiple times how wrong I am that the main focus of Christianity is to show love to your fellow man. Considering that is literally what Jesus spent his entire life on this planet doing, I feel comfortable in my stance. And if I’m not 100% right? What does it matter? Showing love is still pretty damn important. Forrest for the trees.
We done gone from theology to the Civil War just like that!***
Yea SPS!
 
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