FC: Conversation about James Franklin.

[PSUAVLNC]

Interesting thread, fun to read but no surprises. You’re either happy to be 9-3 or 10-2 with a good bowl, in which case you’re solidly behind Coach Franklin, or you’re a real SOB because you’d like to see a win over Michigan/tOSU more than once a decade. Coach F recruits well and conversely make the dumbest game day decisions I have ever seen. As a lifelong Penn State fan, I don’t personally believe he can ever win a NC.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

Interesting thread, fun to read but no surprises. You’re either happy to be 9-3 or 10-2 with a good bowl, in which case you’re solidly behind Coach Franklin, or you’re a real SOB because you’d like to see a win over Michigan/tOSU more than once a decade. Coach F recruits well and conversely make the dumbest game day decisions I have ever seen. As a lifelong Penn State fan, I don’t personally believe he can ever win a NC.

Cool, so he has had the most talented team in the land often? Hell how many times in 10 years could you even say he had the most talented team in his division? I personally don't believe he can either right now at PSU, but I bet if you put him elsewhere he could....some lifelong PSU fans are in denial. Taking the field is super easy too. You can take the field against about 120 or coaches currently and it's a pretty safe stance to take. I don't know any fans who don't want to do better against tOSU or UM.....so that comment in itself is odd to say the least.

 

[psuro]

OK, so a few thoughts;

1. Franklin made a mistake when he uttered the comment(s) about "being elite" a few years ago (2017? 2018?) either before or after an Ohio State game. I think that got the fan base riled up, as much as Joe's "they should lower their expectations" statement in the early 2000s did. It was an emotional statement and I think it has sunk into the psyche of Penn State fans.

2. Unlike most fans, I don't expect Penn State to be top 4 team. History has simply indicated as such. Penn State is, and probably always will be, a Top 10 program, but in the range of 5-10.

3. I will say it's not about losing to Ohio State and/or Michigan. It's about losing to two teams - even in CJF's best years, it's the second loss that gets him. 2016 - Michigan AND Pitt. 2017- Ohio State AND MSU. 2019- Ohio State AND Minny. 2022/2023 - Ohio State AND Michigan.

4. No one is touching OSU in the conference. They are far and away the best team in the conference, and along with Alabama and perhaps Clemson, have been the most elite teams since 2001. That is when their fortunes changed - when Tressel came on board. Since 2001, they have averaged 11 wins per season. In the 23 years prior, they averaged 9 wins a season. In those same time periods, PSU has averaged 8/9 wins respectively, Michigan has averaged 9/9 wins. Iowa is 8/7 wins.

Since 2001, PSU has defeated OSU 5 times. Wisky has defeated OSU 4 times Michigan has defeated OSU 5 times (including the last 3). MSU has defeated OSU 3 times. Purdue, surprinsingly has defeated OSU 4 times. Iowa has defeated OSU 2 times. Illinois has defeated OSU 2 times. No one else in the conference has defeated OSU more than once.

When people gripe about CJF, I get the angst and anger. But the question is - who is doing it better, especially when it comes to OSU? No one appears to have been able to defeat OSU on any regular basis. Responding with "I would like to be able to beat OSU once in a while" is a bit of a far fetched comment - because no one really is, and what Harbaugh had done the last 3 years is really against the norm.

So, I will ask the question I asked our boy HarrisburgDave a while back - who are you going to get to replace CJF, if there does not appear to be anyone out there who has had success against OSU, which is the team you want to defeat more than any other?

 

[leinbacker]

You get what you pay for more often than not...top 15 = top 15.

how much more do we have to pay to eliminate the horrible game day calls like when/where to go for it on 4th down or when to go for 2?

 

[LaJollaCreek]

how much more do we have to pay to eliminate the horrible game day calls like when/where to go for it on 4th down or when to go for 2?

Name a perfect HC who hasn't lost or blown calls....I'll wait. You seem to think there is some perfect coach out there who never lost, went for it and failed, or has made bad decisions. You can tell yourself that BS as I know you trick yourself into believe a lot of your own BS, but I don't buy it. If the man was struggling, failing, or not winning consistently.....you might even have a point, but for now you don't. I'm not sure how you're paying, but there are plenty of ways to buy it out....so have at it man with the plan. I've seen the dumbest of fans mostly from the northeast chase off Super Bowl winning coaches all because they couldn't handle the bumps in the road.

 

[psuro]

how much more do we have to pay to eliminate the horrible game day calls like when/where to go for it on 4th down or when to go for 2?

More than can be afforded.

 

[leinbacker]

Name a perfect HC who hasn't lost or blown calls....I'll wait. You seem to think there is some perfect coach out there who never lost, went for it and failed, or has made bad decisions. You can tell yourself that BS as I know you trick yourself into believe a lot of your own BS, but I don't buy it. If the man was struggling, failing, or not winning consistently.....you might even have a point, but for now you don't. I'm not sure how you're paying, but there are plenty of ways to buy it out....so have at it man with the plan. I've seen the dumbest of fans mostly from the northeast chase off Super Bowl winning coaches all because they couldn't handle the bumps in the road.

There isn't a perfect game day HC but their are very good, good, average, poor, and very poor game day coaches. I would struggle to put JF in a category other than average. How about you? It just sucks that he is good at getting talent but struggles elsewhere.

The difference in PSU's games against OSU in many of the recent years has been coaching. The difference in the last two Michigan games at Beaver Stadium wasn't talent, it was coaching.

Has there been a game in the JF era where we can point to where preparation and game day coaching decisions by JF made the difference?

 

[psuro]

There isn't a perfect game day HC but their are very good, good, average, poor, and very poor game day coaches. I would struggle to put JF in a category other than average. How about you? It just sucks that he is good at getting talent but struggles elsewhere.

The difference in PSU's games against OSU in many of the recent years has been coaching. The difference in the last two Michigan games at Beaver Stadium wasn't talent, it was coaching.

Has there been a game in the JF era where we can point to where preparation and game day coaching decisions by JF made the difference?

So, who is the guy? Keeping in mind my post above about how many times OSU has been defeated in the last 23 years?

 

[LaJollaCreek]

So, who is the guy? Keeping in mind my post above about how many times OSU has been defeated in the last 23 years?

The fact he said no game day decisions or preparations ever won a game is probably the most idiotic thing he's typed...and that is saying something.

 

[Bob78]

So, who is the guy? Keeping in mind my post above about how many times OSU has been defeated in the last 23 years?

I hear ya on this. Who among the known commodities are going to move us up to the Top 2 in the conference? I can't give you a name right now who is a lock to do that, which is the bottom line demand our "just win" PSU fans are making. Maybe an up-n-comer? That's all speculative, and a moot argument.

I know that for me, my primary complaint is the repeated in-game head-scratching moments. "Repeated" being the key word here. Whether it is time management decisions, the go or no go 4th down decisions, the go for 2 because "analytics".... do it once and learn from it? Great. The second and subsequent times of failure in the moments of truth get to me.

And I'm not suggested James is alone in this; certainly if I paid enough attention to such details within other games across the country I'd find plenty of head-scratching examples from plenty of good-reputation coaches. I just want it to be different with my team, my school, and especially against our most formidable hurdles within the conference. These, imo, are correctable mental mistakes. Yet we still see them in year 10.

James is here to stay? That's ok. Just keep getting 1% better every opportunity to do so.

 

[leinbacker]

So, who is the guy? Keeping in mind my post above about how many times OSU has been defeated in the last 23 years?

How often has a Franklin coached team been within a touchdown of tOSU going into the fourth quarter? How many of those did he win? One would think he could have picked off at least one.

 

[psuro]

How often has a Franklin coached team been within a touchdown of tOSU going into the fourth quarter? How many of those did he win? One would think he could have picked off at least one.

Oh, so we are going to play that game - answer a question with a question.

Ok - how many teams have been as close as one touchdown of OSU? Don't you have to be able to coach to get the team within one touchdown?

You need to answer my question with an answer - what coach is going to give you the level of sucess against OSU that you want to have, when no coach has been able to do so for the last 23 years?(again, the last three years of Michigan excepted). Who is that person?

 

[leinbacker]

I know that for me, my primary complaint is the repeated in-game head-scratching moments. "Repeated" being the key word here. Whether it is time management decisions, the go or no go 4th down decisions, the go for 2 because "analytics".... do it once and learn from it? Great. The second and subsequent times of failure in the moments of truth get to me.

Yeah, would love to see the analytics on the Michigan extra point decision. Why take a sure thing and keep the game in reach when you can go for two and negate the momentum changing touchdown you just scored.

 

[Charlie1978]

Interesting thread, fun to read but no surprises. You’re either happy to be 9-3 or 10-2 with a good bowl, in which case you’re solidly behind Coach Franklin, or you’re a real SOB because you’d like to see a win over Michigan/tOSU more than once a decade. Coach F recruits well and conversely make the dumbest game day decisions I have ever seen. As a lifelong Penn State fan, I don’t personally believe he can ever win a NC.

Yep one of the best threads on this site. I am pro-Franklin mainly because of his ability to recruit and his love of Penn State. He did not run from rebuilding our great program, never bitched about it either. We are really at the point with him where he will level out as our Mark Richt, or leap up like Saban did after he left MSU. PSU with Kraft is committed to the highest level, so now we expect to grow to elite status now that the potential excuses are gone.

 

[psuro]

Yep one of the best threads on this site. I am pro-Franklin mainly because of his ability to recruit and his love of Penn State. He did not run from rebuilding our great program, never bitched about it either. We are really at the point with him where he will level out as our Mark Richt, or leap up like Saban did after he left MSU. PSU with Kraft is committed to the highest level, so now we expect to grow to elite status now that the potential excuses are gone.

We will see what happens, but I am of the opinion PSU AD "culture" is more in lne with the top revenue earners in college sports than they were five years ago.

NCAA Finances: Revenue & Expenses by School - USA TODAY

Which are the most profitable college athletic programs in the country? See a ranked listed, including total revenue and expenses. Brought to you by USA TODAY.

sports.usatoday.com

 

[PSUSignore]

OK, so a few thoughts;

1. Franklin made a mistake when he uttered the comment(s) about "being elite" a few years ago (2017? 2018?) either before or after an Ohio State game. I think that got the fan base riled up, as much as Joe's "they should lower their expectations" statement in the early 2000s did. It was an emotional statement and I think it has sunk into the psyche of Penn State fans.

2. Unlike most fans, I don't expect Penn State to be top 4 team. History has simply indicated as such. Penn State is, and probably always will be, a Top 10 program, but in the range of 5-10.

3. I will say it's not about losing to Ohio State and/or Michigan. It's about losing to two teams - even in CJF's best years, it's the second loss that gets him. 2016 - Michigan AND Pitt. 2017- Ohio State AND MSU. 2019- Ohio State AND Minny. 2022/2023 - Ohio State AND Michigan.

4. No one is touching OSU in the conference. They are far and away the best team in the conference, and along with Alabama and perhaps Clemson, have been the most elite teams since 2001. That is when their fortunes changed - when Tressel came on board. Since 2001, they have averaged 11 wins per season. In the 23 years prior, they averaged 9 wins a season. In those same time periods, PSU has averaged 8/9 wins respectively, Michigan has averaged 9/9 wins. Iowa is 8/7 wins.

Since 2001, PSU has defeated OSU 5 times. Wisky has defeated OSU 4 times Michigan has defeated OSU 5 times (including the last 3). MSU has defeated OSU 3 times. Purdue, surprinsingly has defeated OSU 4 times. Iowa has defeated OSU 2 times. Illinois has defeated OSU 2 times. No one else in the conference has defeated OSU more than once.

When people gripe about CJF, I get the angst and anger. But the question is - who is doing it better, especially when it comes to OSU? No one appears to have been able to defeat OSU on any regular basis. Responding with "I would like to be able to beat OSU once in a while" is a bit of a far fetched comment - because no one really is, and what Harbaugh had done the last 3 years is really against the norm.

So, I will ask the question I asked our boy HarrisburgDave a while back - who are you going to get to replace CJF, if there does not appear to be anyone out there who has had success against OSU, which is the team you want to defeat more than any other?

Point 4 is the big one that is lost on many. Winning 10 games a year in this era where OSU is the program they've become, is a better accomplishment than winning at the same clip 20-30 years ago when there was more parity. Years ago there weren't teams absolutely dominating like we have with OSU and Bama now. That makes things incredibly difficult for anyone that has to play those teams every single season as we have had to. As you mentioned, despite OSU being a juggernaut we've done as good against them as just about anyone else, plus have a number of games we lost where we really challenged them but still lost.

 

[PSUSignore]

delete

 

[PSUSignore]

There isn't a perfect game day HC but their are very good, good, average, poor, and very poor game day coaches. I would struggle to put JF in a category other than average. How about you? It just sucks that he is good at getting talent but struggles elsewhere.

The difference in PSU's games against OSU in many of the recent years has been coaching. The difference in the last two Michigan games at Beaver Stadium wasn't talent, it was coaching.

Has there been a game in the JF era where we can point to where preparation and game day coaching decisions by JF made the difference?

You see what you want to see. There is a talent disparity with OSU, there has been for many years. UM in recent years is closer, but execution still falls on the players. The coaches can only do so much, the players have to run the plays. For example, bad gap discipline last year that allowed UM to run for 400+ yards wasn't because of bad coaching. Do you really think coaches don't teach and tell them to fill those gaps? The players didn't do their jobs on the field.

 

[leinbacker]

You see what you want to see. There is a talent disparity with OSU, there has been for many years. UM in recent years is closer, but execution still falls on the players. The coaches can only do so much, the players have to run the plays. For example, bad gap discipline last year that allowed UM to run for 400+ yards wasn't because of bad coaching. Do you really think coaches don't teach and tell them to fill those gaps? The players didn't do their jobs on the field.

So maybe we need better teachers?

 

[PSUSignore]

Yeah, would love to see the analytics on the Michigan extra point decision. Why take a sure thing and keep the game in reach when you can go for two and negate the momentum changing touchdown you just scored.

It's just math. You're allowed to disagree, but the math says that going for 2 on the first try is a better option because if you get it now you have a chance to win in regulation by going for 2 again on the next TD, if you get that far. If you don't go for it the first time the best you can do is hope for overtime.

 

[PSUSignore]

So maybe we need better teachers?

If Albert Einstein taught you math instead of the teachers you actually had, would you be a genius? The limiting factor isn't always the teacher.

 

[leinbacker]

If Albert Einstein taught you math instead of the teachers you actually had, would you be a genius? The limiting factor isn't always the teacher.

I guess it depends on the math. I think grade/high school, Einstein wouldn't be a very good teacher. Probably not good for an undergrad either.