Toggle sidebar

FC/OT: Passenger jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Potomac River/Reagan National…

Midnighter

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
9,900
15,776
113
Ugh. Wife flies out of there monthly. What’s weird though is earlier in the day on my way home from work I noticed an Osprey plane flying really, really low over the National Mall, and saw it circling over the Potomac when I was on GW Parkway heading back to NoVA. You do not see those very often in DC (I’m sure it’s unrelated, but wanted to mention).

 
Last edited:
  • Sad
Reactions: Psu00, hohmadw1978, Catch1lion and 4 others
PSUFBFAN

PSUFBFAN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
1,134
2,804
113
Midnighter said:
Ugh. Wife flies out of there monthly. What’s weird though is earlier in the day on my way home from work I noticed an Osprey plane flying really, really low over the National Mall, and saw it circling over the Potomac when I was on GW Parkway heading back to NoVA. You do not see those very often in DC (I’m sure it’s unrelated, but wanted to mention).

Click to expand...

I'm going to jump to an immediate, unsubstantiated, opinion - the helicopter will be determined to be "at fault". It looks like it flew into the flight path of planes landing at DCA. I doubt the passenger jet was in the "wrong spot".
 
  • Like
Reactions: slwlion01, Bison13, Blair10 and 2 others
psuro

psuro

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
8,052
17,516
113


Audio and some video.


PSUFBFAN said:
I'm going to jump to an immediate, unsubstantiated, opinion - the helicopter will be determined to be "at fault". It looks like it flew into the flight path of planes landing at DCA. I doubt the passenger jet was in the "wrong spot".
Click to expand...

I would agree with you.

Every runway has a pattern for take off and landing - typically, you fly downwind parallel to the runway, turn either left or right for a base leg and then turn again towards the runway. That is what planes fly when there is no towered airport, but when there is a towered airport, the tower gives the incoming traffic the pattern (approach) to fly. Helos generally fly the opposite pattern of the published pattern. This is to keep them out of the flow of traffic until they are ready to come in for their landing spot.

It does not appear (from the audio and radar) that the helo got behind the CRJ as he was directed to do. Even if he had, he would have been caught in the jet wash and that would have created turbulence. The helo should have extended the leg of flight he was on, and let the airplane get past him before turning and being behind the jet. He should have also stayed at an altitude above the airplane, as jet wash will sink.

Edit - Forgot to mention that military comms are on a different frequency than commercial flights. So neither the helo or the CRJ were aware of each other verbally (i.e. they were not aware that ATC was speaking to the other) (Tower speaks to both on different freq). The pilots of the CRJ were focussed on landing and probably were not looking for any other traffic - however the helo should have been searching for traffic.

Sad all around.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: wbcbus, LionJim, ApexLion and 4 others
M

Mr. Potter

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2021
1,357
2,761
113
In this day and age, with our advanced military and technology it goes to prove the philosophy of entropy, should never have happened.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LionJim
ApexLion

ApexLion

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2021
4,096
7,031
113
I suspect there are some helicopter pilots on this board? When this happened last night, I logged in here expecting a discussion of flight routes, physics, air traffic control etc. Maybe the AKB has lost some members over the years? I come here not to the goofy media first.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OuiRPSU
Midnighter

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
9,900
15,776
113
ApexLion said:
I suspect there are some helicopter pilots on this board? When this happened last night, I logged in here expecting a discussion of flight routes, physics, air traffic control etc. Maybe the AKB has lost some members over the years? I come here not to the goofy media first.
Click to expand...

psuro said:


Audio and some video.




I would agree with you.

Every runway has a pattern for take off and landing - typically, you fly downwind parallel to the runway, turn either left or right for a base leg and then turn again towards the runway. That is what planes fly when there is no towered airport, but when there is a towered airport, the tower gives the incoming traffic the pattern (approach) to fly. Helos generally fly the opposite pattern of the published pattern. This is to keep them out of the flow of traffic until they are ready to come in for their landing spot.

It does not appear (from the audio and radar) that the helo got behind the CRJ as he was directed to do. Even if he had, he would have been caught in the jet wash and that would have created turbulence. The helo should have extended the leg of flight he was on, and let the airplane get past him before turning and being behind the jet. He should have also stayed at an altitude above the airplane, as jet wash will sink.

Edit - Forgot to mention that military comms are on a different frequency than commercial flights. So neither the helo or the CRJ were aware of each other verbally (i.e. they were not aware that ATC was speaking to the other) (Tower speaks to both on different freq). The pilots of the CRJ were focussed on landing and probably were not looking for any other traffic - however the helo should have been searching for traffic.

Sad all around.
Click to expand...


Some good stuff here I think^
 
  • Like
Reactions: ApexLion
PSUAVLNC

PSUAVLNC

Well-known member
Oct 28, 2021
574
830
93
100% - why is a U.S. Army helicopter directly in the glide path of a landing passenger plane at 300’……something very wrong here.
PSUFBFAN said:
I'm going to jump to an immediate, unsubstantiated, opinion - the helicopter will be determined to be "at fault". It looks like it flew into the flight path of planes landing at DCA. I doubt the passenger jet was in the "wrong spot".
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
NittPicker

NittPicker

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
4,384
8,912
113
Maybe it's my hearing or my speakers but I can hardly understand a lot of what is being said in the audio. Hopefully it's better for ATC and the pilots.

I know next to nothing about air traffic in the DC area but I've often wondered why more flights don't go through Dulles. I realize AA is the main user of DCA while United heavily uses IAD. It seems like aerial congestion around the district must be crazy, but I get DCA is convenient since it's "right there". Maybe Dulles doesn't have the capacity to take on more traffic though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Midnighter
W

WestSideLion

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2021
3,443
3,860
113
One of my best friends (and a PSUer) flew helicopters for the Navy and lives here in DC. His read is that this is mainly the fault of the chopper pilot. They were reportedly using night vision goggles and that is notorious for impacting peripheral vision. If they weren't actively scanning the periphery, then it would have been easy to miss the commercial airliner.

He also said the ATC could have / should have seen this and prevented it. TBD on how that plays out in the ensuring FAA investigation. Regardless, this is tragic and could have been prevented.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Psu00, Tgar, Nitt1300 and 3 others
psuro

psuro

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
8,052
17,516
113
Some reports that the helo pilot mistook a departing jet for the CRJ. And that local light pollution (from buidings, street lights, etc) may have contributed to the confusion. Keep in mind they were roughly 400 feet above the ground.

Each plane has a green light on it's right wingtip and a red light on it's left wingtip. Plus the beacon on the tail. So, if a pilot sees a green light and a beacon in front of him, he knows the plane is going from left to right. And as such, he should have turned to the left to get behind the plane. However, it looks like he went straight and assumed he would get behind the departing plane, which would have been identified with a red tail light and beacon, indicating the plane was going from his right to his left.
 
  • Like
Reactions: slwlion01, Tgar and Midnighter
psuro

psuro

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
8,052
17,516
113
WestSideLion said:
One of my best friends (and a PSUer) flew helicopters for the Navy and lives here in DC. His read is that this is mainly the fault of the chopper pilot. They were reportedly using night vision goggles and that is notorious for impacting peripheral vision. If they weren't actively scanning the periphery, then it would have been easy to miss the commercial airliner.

He also said the ATC could have / should have seen this and prevented it. TBD on how that plays out in the ensuring FAA investigation. Regardless, this is tragic and could have been prevented.
Click to expand...
I believe it's the NTSB conducts the investigation and reports on the accident. FAA will investigate the ATC issues.

Night vision goggles in an area of heavy light pollution would be dangerous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WestSideLion
Midnighter

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
9,900
15,776
113
NittPicker said:
Maybe it's my hearing or my speakers but I can hardly understand a lot of what is being said in the audio. Hopefully it's better for ATC and the pilots.

I know next to nothing about air traffic in the DC area but I've often wondered why more flights don't go through Dulles. I realize AA is the main user of DCA while United heavily uses IAD. It seems like aerial congestion around the district must be crazy, but I get DCA is convenient since it's "right there". Maybe Dulles doesn't have the capacity to take on more traffic though.
Click to expand...

It's constant; you have DCA right there and frequent presidential and CIA choppers in and around the area. DCA is a pretty small airport by most standards, but it handles a ton of traffic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Psu00
W

WestSideLion

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2021
3,443
3,860
113
psuro said:
I believe it's the NTSB conducts the investigation and reports on the accident. FAA will investigate the ATC issues.

Night vision goggles in an area of heavy light pollution would be dangerous.
Click to expand...
Yeah...lots more speculation than facts right now. But you had a military helicopter directly in a major consumer airport landing corridor. One craft clearly belonged there and the other clearly didn't.
 
Midnighter

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
9,900
15,776
113
WestSideLion said:
Yeah...lots more speculation than facts right now. But you had a military helicopter directly in a major consumer airport landing corridor. One craft clearly belonged there and the other clearly didn't.
Click to expand...

Statement by DOD confirms 'night' training/evaluation using night-vision goggles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WestSideLion
psuro

psuro

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
8,052
17,516
113
WestSideLion said:
Yeah...lots more speculation than facts right now. But you had a military helicopter directly in a major consumer airport landing corridor. One craft clearly belonged there and the other clearly didn't.
Click to expand...
That's not entirely true. The airspace is controlled by the tower. The tower's main purpose is to control spacing within a certain proximity of the tower. A commercial jet, military aircraft and even general aviation planes are controlled by the tower or ATC (depending on their location within the airspace).

The helo would have reported to the Tower their position prior to entering the airspace and gained access to that airspace from the ATC that controls it (the tower). As long as they have approval to enter the airspace, they have every right to be there.

Couple of other thoughts. The CRJ was to land on runway 1 (landing on a heading of 010 on a compass). He was asked by tower to circle and land on 33 (a 330 heading on a compass). So, that brought him outside of where he was expecting to land. If you look at a google map, you will see that Runway 1 is much longer than Runway 33. Runway 33 is 5200 feet - so in order for him to be able to land (and most planes land about 300-400 feet past the end of the runway) and stop within the end of the runway, he had to come in low. That puts him at 400 feet which is the altitude of the helo.

Flying into DCA is like threading a needle. There are a number of restrictions that make traversing through there challenging.
 
Last edited:
PSUHarry

PSUHarry

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
954
1,074
93
Midnighter said:
Ugh. Wife flies out of there monthly. What’s weird though is earlier in the day on my way home from work I noticed an Osprey plane flying really, really low over the National Mall, and saw it circling over the Potomac when I was on GW Parkway heading back to NoVA. You do not see those very often in DC (I’m sure it’s unrelated, but wanted to mention).

Click to expand...

My wife knows an entire family that was wiped out. Husband, Wife 2 daughters gone. Was at the oldest daughters baby shower. You can't get your arms around it.
 
  • Sad
  • Like
Reactions: TheBigUglies, Anon1656690730, PSUJam and 16 others
Catch1lion

Catch1lion

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
2,073
3,214
113
I just heard a report that the night before an airliner had to make a second pass because of a helicopter appeared in its flight path . Also one data recorder from the jet has been recovered.
NYT- one ATC was doing both the helicopters and planes . Should be one for each .
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: WestSideLion
SleepyLion

SleepyLion

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2022
1,392
1,832
113
Catch1lion said:
I just heard a report that the night before an airliner had to make a second pass because of a helicopter appeared in its flight path . Also one data recorder from the jet has been recovered.
NYT- one ATC was doing both the helicopters and planes . Should be one for each .
Click to expand...
I heard a report that there are only 19 ATCs on staff. 30 is fully staffed. This is the number of people who are available to work including days off, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Catch1lion
A

Anon1656690730

New member
Jul 1, 2022
5
4
3
PSUHarry said:
My wife knows an entire family that was wiped out. Husband, Wife 2 daughters gone. Was at the oldest daughters baby shower. You can't get your arms around it.
Click to expand...
I understand. We lost two cousins and an uncle to a military accident many years ago. It is horrible. Add in that the govt. lawyers appealed the ruling to reduce the settlement. Placing a dollar value on a six month and six year old children........stunning.
 
  • Angry
Reactions: PSUHarry and LionJim
B

Bwifan

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
1,586
2,845
113
psuro said:
That's not entirely true. The airspace is controlled by the tower. The tower's main purpose is to control spacing within a certain proximity of the tower. A commercial jet, military aircraft and even general aviation planes are controlled by the tower or ATC (depending on their location within the airspace).

The helo would have reported to the Tower their position prior to entering the airspace and gained access to that airspace from the ATC that controls it (the tower). As long as they have approval to enter the airspace, they have every right to be there.

Couple of other thoughts. The CRJ was to land on runway 1 (landing on a heading of 010 on a compass). He was asked by tower to circle and land on 33 (a 330 heading on a compass). So, that brought him outside of where he was expecting to land. If you look at a google map, you will see that Runway 1 is much longer than Runway 33. Runway 33 is 5200 feet - so in order for him to be able to land (and most planes land about 300-400 feet past the end of the runway) and stop within the end of the runway, he had to come in low. That puts him at 400 feet which is the altitude of the helo.

Flying into DCA is like threading a needle. There are a number of restrictions that make traversing through there challenging.
Click to expand...
Intersesting scenarios I heard yesterday... Note saw reported this morning investigators still have not determined if the helicopter pilots were wearing night vision goggles....
I was listening to a former special forces pilot that flew these helicopters. He made a very interesting point that I hadn't thought about... He thinks a possible scenario is the tower was instructing the helicopter to follow the tail of the plane and go behind the CRJ 700 plane... Helicopter confirmed the directions to the tower and he thinks the pilots of the helicopter possibly were looking at the plane taking off and thought that was the plane the tower was talking about and they were already behind behind the tail of that plane so they proceeded straight forward not realizing the tower was talking about the plane on final approach coming in from their left ... Add in if they were using night vision goggles that reduced their periophial vision by 40% that would have never seen it coming as well as the helicopter crew sometimes has 4 people on the chopper this had 3 (not unnormal) and if the soldier in the back was looking to the north at the plane taking off he would have never seen the plane on final landing from the left which a 4 person would have been able to call out and warn the helicopter pilots.... Add in only 1 air controller due to cutbacks that was talking to all 3 aircraft at the same time it was a recipe for a big problem

Another scenario he talked about he said when flying his helicopter in Korea he had a very close miss with a 747 at an airport because of all the lights between buildings, high rises and cars etc he never saw the 747 and its landing lights they blended in with all the surroundings and he almost collided with the 747... Said when you get down low enough it all blends together so it's takes a lot of extra training to be certified to fly into those places. These helicopter pilots had to be certified to fly that route last night due to air traffic and buildings etc. Special forces pilot said just because you had a helicopter pilot license in the military you were not allowed to fly that route they did last night..lots of extra training and certification is required to fly the route those military pilots did last night...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: WestSideLion, Bison13, EricStratton-RushChairman and 2 others
Nitt1300

Nitt1300

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
5,209
9,900
113
If what we're hearing is correct (and it is way early to know) they were 200' higher than they were supposed to be. That is hard to understand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bwifan
B

Bwifan

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
1,586
2,845
113
Nitt1300 said:
If what we're hearing is correct (and it is way early to know) they were 200' higher than they were supposed to be. That is hard to understand.
Click to expand...
I think it's going to be a domino effect of things that went wrong. I agree I have heard those reports they were 200' higher than they were supposed to be but even if they were lower there is no way air control is going to allow a commercial airliner to fly right over the top of the rotors of helicopter that close.... to most the big question is why the helicopter never attempted to change course or altitude or veer away. They literally flew right into the path of the plane like an arrow. That is why I think that former special ops helicopter pilot theory has creedence. I think the heli pilots were looking at the plane and the end of the runway taking off and thought air control was saying do you see the plane and go behind its tail which they already were so they proceeded straight across the landing path without changing altitude or direction and never saw the plane on final approach coming in from their left
 
SleepyLion

SleepyLion

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2022
1,392
1,832
113
200' is very close...
the FAA defines a near miss as within 500'.

So, even if the helicopter was 200' lower it should have been concerning.

That is one of the reasons I think the helicopter pilot thought (s)he supoosed to be following the plane that was taking off and was not looking for a plane that was landing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nitt1300
EricStratton-RushChairman

EricStratton-RushChairman

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2021
1,532
3,869
113
Bwifan said:
Intersesting scenarios I heard yesterday... Note saw reported this morning investigators still have not determined if the helicopter pilots were wearing night vision goggles....
I was listening to a former special forces pilot that flew these helicopters. He made a very interesting point that I hadn't thought about... He thinks a possible scenario is the tower was instructing the helicopter to follow the tail of the plane and go behind the CRJ 700 plane... Helicopter confirmed the directions to the tower and he thinks the pilots of the helicopter possibly were looking at the plane taking off and thought that was the plane the tower was talking about and they were already behind behind the tail of that plane so they proceeded straight forward not realizing the tower was talking about the plane on final approach coming in from their left ... Add in if they were using night vision goggles that reduced their periophial vision by 40% that would have never seen it coming as well as the helicopter crew sometimes has 4 people on the chopper this had 3 (not unnormal) and if the soldier in the back was looking to the north at the plane taking off he would have never seen the plane on final landing from the left which a 4 person would have been able to call out and warn the helicopter pilots.... Add in only 1 air controller due to cutbacks that was talking to all 3 aircraft at the same time it was a recipe for a big problem

Another scenario he talked about he said when flying his helicopter in Korea he had a very close miss with a 747 at an airport because of all the lights between buildings, high rises and cars etc he never saw the 747 and its landing lights they blended in with all the surroundings and he almost collided with the 747... Said when you get down low enough it all blends together so it's takes a lot of extra training to be certified to fly into those places. These helicopter pilots had to be certified to fly that route last night due to air traffic and buildings etc. Special forces pilot said just because you had a helicopter pilot license in the military you were not allowed to fly that route they did last night..lots of extra training and certification is required to fly the route those military pilots did last night...
Click to expand...
Really good stuff here... i have seen similiar feedback from other pilots, especially a few from 160th SOAR
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bwifan
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom