Could timber management of prescribed fire prevent any of this? Not trying to get political…. Just wondering if a cleaned up forest floor could have prevented any of this from a fella who doesn’t know timber.
LA Fire question for any timber guys on here
- Thread starter HulksStache
- Start date
Put simply - yes. Cali has been more concerned with environmental things than the practical ones. Don't get me wrong, I'm an environmentalist, but they (as a state on the whole) have taken it too far. They have been getting rid of firebreaks, re-routing drainage, and letting wild areas grow a little too wild.
There isn't "forest" in any meaningful sense in LA/Socal. In North California/PNW there is case to be made for more/better/smarter harvesting of timber.
I would like to know if it is true they could have damned up snow melt over the past two years but refused to do it. The water situation would have been better.
North MS Kudzu. No more fires, no more slides.
Of course. Those ecosystems had routine fire before development. They need it. It’s not possible now.
Where the fires have been burning it’s mostly brush and bushes and not forest. In some areas you could maybe put some fire lanes in but with the wind blowing so hard it just doesn’t stop at a fire lane
It’s really a worst case scenario with 80+ mph winds and dry vegetation in their dry season.
ETA: Now it’s a different story where these fires happen in the mountains and forests. There’s been cost cutting on fire prevention within the forest service and it’s come to bite them in the arse
It’s really a worst case scenario with 80+ mph winds and dry vegetation in their dry season.
ETA: Now it’s a different story where these fires happen in the mountains and forests. There’s been cost cutting on fire prevention within the forest service and it’s come to bite them in the arse
I know nothing about timber management, but I do read the Pack. Standby for my words of wisdom.
a few years back i heard an interview with someone in the US Forestry Service on Supertalk MS.....apparently he was new to the area and originally from Cali....he talked about the wildfires, but something that i remember vividly was him talking about the nickname "tree huggers" originated in the late 70s and 80s and referred to the folks that were opposing proper forest management, and they knew back then that there would be a lot of wildfire problems in the future because of the 'tree huggers' getting their way .....it was a few years back, so my memory on it is hazy, but it made perfect sense
I've been out to that part of LA a few times, and spent some time supporting the timber industry (disclaimer, I only ever did one real timber cruise). I also have coworkers and friends who have been impacted by past or current fires.
There's no trees in that area like we have down here. Think prairie grasses on steep hillsides, with intermittent scrub brush. I'm not sure I saw a naturally-planted tree over 10' tall across many acres northwest of LA. The highways/interstates run through what passes for valleys in a lot of spots.
The fires pop up, have tons of easy-burning fuel, and are spread by sometimes-gale-force winds that are blowing through every depression in the terrain that they can.
At some point local or county government should've either restricted growth, changed the building codes, taken out-of-the-box approaches to fire planning, or some combo of all.
If I built a house out there, it would be brick over concrete with a clay tile roof. Under no circumstances would I have an asphalt or heaven forbid, wood) roof...large burning embers blow a long, long way in those winds, resulting in those videos you see of people with hoses trying to protect their houses when the fire is still in the distance.
There's no trees in that area like we have down here. Think prairie grasses on steep hillsides, with intermittent scrub brush. I'm not sure I saw a naturally-planted tree over 10' tall across many acres northwest of LA. The highways/interstates run through what passes for valleys in a lot of spots.
The fires pop up, have tons of easy-burning fuel, and are spread by sometimes-gale-force winds that are blowing through every depression in the terrain that they can.
At some point local or county government should've either restricted growth, changed the building codes, taken out-of-the-box approaches to fire planning, or some combo of all.
If I built a house out there, it would be brick over concrete with a clay tile roof. Under no circumstances would I have an asphalt or heaven forbid, wood) roof...large burning embers blow a long, long way in those winds, resulting in those videos you see of people with hoses trying to protect their houses when the fire is still in the distance.
Yeah - this is the thing people don't get about the areas burning around LA. These are not forest fires feeding off of forest floors full of fuel. This this a lot like sagebrush and low understory plants. Yes, there are trees, but this isn't a forestry management issue. If you eliminate these plants, then you have erosion and mudslide problems. Throw 80-100 MPH Santa Anna winds in and this is a perfect horror story.
It is also true that the State - and the Fed, who owns a lot of land - have not done a good job managing the areas that are forested. The Fed has basically said that they spend so much on resources to fight fires in Cali that they don't have the funds to actually manage the lands appropriately.
I agree that in this particular instance it's not really forestry management practices that are the main culprit for the reasons mentioned multiple times. It's not forests in this area.
But it's pretty obvious that better practices of creating large firebreaks wherever possible and enforcing existing rules that require homeowners to aggressively manage the brush on their properties would likely have made a huge difference.
But not nearly as much of a difference as making sure the extremely competent brush firefighters of the LAFD had unlimited water to fight this thing. They couldn't stop it because the hydrants were mostly empty. That narrative will be all over the news.
But it's pretty obvious that better practices of creating large firebreaks wherever possible and enforcing existing rules that require homeowners to aggressively manage the brush on their properties would likely have made a huge difference.
But not nearly as much of a difference as making sure the extremely competent brush firefighters of the LAFD had unlimited water to fight this thing. They couldn't stop it because the hydrants were mostly empty. That narrative will be all over the news.
Regardless of the fact that it’s more brush than trees, not being prepared for wildfires like LA is, is….well…wild. Having to have firefighters use purses full of pool water? That’s egregious. Another example of gross negligence on the part of the city and state.
My brother lives blocks from one of the evacuation zones for the Eaton fire. He says it’s physically hard to walk around outside at times when the Santa Ana winds are kicking up.
If there were hydrants at all. Supposedly there were a great many stolen in 2024.
Have you ever had a large fire of any kind in your town?
We've had a number in mine over the past couple of years - Industrial fires. Due to my job, I've talked extensively with our Fire Chief about them. We are smallest Class 1 ISO fire department in Georgia. ISO's rating consider all elements of your infrastructure, including water supply systems, hydrant locations, and your building code enforcement to rate you. Class 1 is the best rating. You know what happens when you have a 5 alarm fire and emergency personnel from multiple jurisdictions start drawing every ounce of water they can - the system runs dry. It happens a helluva a lot more then you think it does just with normal house fires. LA is a Class 1 ISO as well. Is LA doing things perfectly? I'm sure they are not. But, this blame game for political gain is just that - a game. LA is dealing with a disaster situation and people are exploiting it for talking points on Fox.
In a nutshell: no, it's not true.
All of the major reservoirs in Southern California are at or above historical averages right now. LA topped off fire fighting water tanks before Santa Ana winds kicked up, so they had over 3 MM gallons of water available for fire fighting in the Palisades.
The problem of dry fire hydrants in pacific palisades was based on delivery issues, not water capacity. They have the water they need to fight the fires, they just can't get it to the fires fast enough.
Pacific Palisades is at the end of the LA water line, which means lower water pressure. They used the water so rapidly, the tanks ran dry, and the main water line could not keep up with demand.
No other areas of LA have reported dry fire hydrants.
It's almost like living in places where mother nature is against you will force you to a reckoning point periodically. It will be interesting to see how insurers handle underwriting in that area going forward. Flood zones aren't covered for a reason. I wonder fire/landslide zones are a thing?
This is SPS. We do not value common sense or direct personal knowledge. Please drop off this thread and go contribute on one where you know nothing.
It's comical to me that in order to stay in political lock step, people will just assume that water is in limitless supply and can be delivered in full force at every necessary exit point, regardless of system load. Like they think that it's magically just appearing at their faucet without need of some major infrastructure that can be overdesigned and still not compete with the crazy conditions they had out there.
Half the Airmen in the AF are from California. I was talking to one, who had become a AF Firefighter, in the mid 80s (88/89ish), we were discussing some out of control wife fires burning out there. He stated that due to the politicians/activists/etc., they didn't like to do controlled burns to clear out dead brush and that was a major factor in the wildfires.
If they really cared bout the environment they wouldn't have 5,000 matchbox houses packed in an area less than 10 square miles
One thing I know for sure, no one here, no matter their level of expertise, knows if it's just normal and expected for the hydrants to run dry in this situation or if it's a sign of gross mismanagement at multiple levels. None of us have enough of the relevant facts.
I'll be interested to hear what experts have to say in the coming days, but I doubt we'll get to the bottom of it.
I know which way common sense makes me lean on what the problem is. And I suspect Karen Bass won't finish her mayoral term when this is all done.
I'll be interested to hear what experts have to say in the coming days, but I doubt we'll get to the bottom of it.
I know which way common sense makes me lean on what the problem is. And I suspect Karen Bass won't finish her mayoral term when this is all done.
They care more about the views of the environment, and they are incredible views.
I second this!!! Your only hope is to work your clearly uneducated thought into a way to blame it all on the transfer portal, NIL, or John Cohen…***
I wonder if the people criticizing the leadership in Southern California have any clue whether their own city is prepared for a major fire outbreak, or any other type of extreme weather catastrophe?
I certainly don't. I just trust the fire hydrants in front of my house will work if I need it....despite the fact my water service gets interrupted quite a bit due to construction or "system upgrades".
I know Atlanta and most of Georgia was woefully unprepared for extreme winter weather events, because it just didn't make sense to spend money on something that rarely happens. After two big shutdowns in 2011 and 2014, the State now has salt and brine deposits all over the place, and they have been treating the roads here since Tuesday. But it took 2 disasters to develop the political clout to get something done.
I once had a sheer pin cause me substantial grief on a fire sprinkler system and I didn't even think about politics as I cursed my luck...
Wildfires in Cali are not a rare thing. They are common and something that should be extensively planned for. That seems obviously different than a Southern city not being prepared for an extreme winter weather event.
And they have tremendous amounts of tax dollars to be spent on being prepared, but I suspect they aren't spent intelligently.
I wasn't drawing an analogy, just questioning how closely people monitor their own city's preparedness for extreme events. I know I don't keep track at all
Wildfires in the Santa Monica mountains are common...so common that State Farm terminated the insurance coverage of thousands of Palisades homes just last Summer. You would think some of those homeowners would be asking questions about perhaps mitigating their risks.
You were right above when you said none of us knows whether the city's preparedness was reasonable. It was obviously inadequate, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was gross negligence or unreasonable.
I just jumped in this thread to say this whole issue about dams in Northern California is unrelated nonsense.
My restaurant is at the end of a runway that houses the largest smokejumper base in the US. It's been fascinating getting to know them and learn about wildfires.
#1-Smokejumpers are badasses. Special forces level training and physical demands. The CIA has recruited smokejumpers to perform clandestine work for them.
#2-Weather is by far the #1 factor in wildfires. Wind is not only the enemy for spreading fires and drying out brush, but the Forest Service/BLM can't fly when winds are whipping and the hotshots on the ground can't go in until the winds are manageable.
#3-Forest management is definitely a piece of the pie in a lot of wildfires. We live in the heart of the Forest Service country and are surrounded by national forest. About 80-85% of our county is national forest and over half is designated as a wilderness area which means they just let it burn, won't even try to put it out. The state does the best job with timber management and state lands have the least amount of fires/least intense. Then the National Forest. Then the wilderness area.
But overall, there ain't a dåmn thing you can do when mother nature decides it's time for a fire. We had fires burn from July until the snow started flying in October. It was horrible and I hate to see some of the damage done when the snow melts off next summer.
And for the record, hating on LA is one of my favorite past times. But anyone with a moderate understanding of hydraulics understands you can't possibly but enough water in an urban water supply system to have the amount of water in the pipes to put out a 17ing wildfire. I'd be similar to asking Oklahoma City to put up a big wall that blocks tornados.
#1-Smokejumpers are badasses. Special forces level training and physical demands. The CIA has recruited smokejumpers to perform clandestine work for them.
#2-Weather is by far the #1 factor in wildfires. Wind is not only the enemy for spreading fires and drying out brush, but the Forest Service/BLM can't fly when winds are whipping and the hotshots on the ground can't go in until the winds are manageable.
#3-Forest management is definitely a piece of the pie in a lot of wildfires. We live in the heart of the Forest Service country and are surrounded by national forest. About 80-85% of our county is national forest and over half is designated as a wilderness area which means they just let it burn, won't even try to put it out. The state does the best job with timber management and state lands have the least amount of fires/least intense. Then the National Forest. Then the wilderness area.
But overall, there ain't a dåmn thing you can do when mother nature decides it's time for a fire. We had fires burn from July until the snow started flying in October. It was horrible and I hate to see some of the damage done when the snow melts off next summer.
And for the record, hating on LA is one of my favorite past times. But anyone with a moderate understanding of hydraulics understands you can't possibly but enough water in an urban water supply system to have the amount of water in the pipes to put out a 17ing wildfire. I'd be similar to asking Oklahoma City to put up a big wall that blocks tornados.
K, sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning.
My understanding based on the vast knowledge I've gained watching podcasts on the internet, is that State Farm pulled out of the area because they were being restricted from charging rates commiserate with their assessment of risk.
And I agree it may not have been gross negligence, but my Spidey senses tell me there is some blame to be heaped upon some folks at the top.
Occasional prescribed burns to gently clear out the dried underbrush would have helped a ton. But they refuse to do it.
Nice CYA story that, not surprisingly, leaves out the fact that LA has the ability to draw water from other resources which would have kept the hydrants filled except this system was not functioning. It has not been functioning properly for a few years. This was known and ignored. The vast scale of this devastation was avoidable. Neglect and incompetence 100% led to this
Oh dear God. Did you just end your rant with a jab against mean ole FAUX NEWSSS(!!!)? I don’t even watch FNC but I do know to pay no attention to those who include comments about Fox. It’s almost as bad as TDS.
But back to your tirade, do you not believe there is negligence on the part of the city and state to not be prepared for an event that happens quite regularly in that area/state? I’m assuming it’s hard not to take it personally when someone of your party fails to do their job, but don’t hate on me for pointing out the obvious. I’ve seen posts made by democrats in CA who are livid with the state and city. But I guess they’ve watched too much FNC like me.***
This is SPS so it has to be said. If you see any of those out of control wife fires in MS, let me know. Mine is a little on the cold side - even before the snow.
Yet you love to turn everything political so I’m shocked.
My father-in-law was a researcher forester with the U.S. Forest Service who spent most of his career in north Mississippi. Early on he told me that "tree huggers who fight using controlled burns" are ruining the western forests. Political correctness is a thriving business in the government and military today.
You can't build that dense with stick built homes in a desert climate that gets irrigated to grow more wood. If they rebuild they should only be permitted to build in the most nonflammable way possible. Cement, tile and metal buildings. Plants allowed should be succulents and only very low combustible plants. Function over form. They should also build back only 2/3rds of what was there.
Placing blame on natural disasters like this, earthquakes, strong storms is just silly cause humans can't do shite to prevent it. However we can learn from them and try to mitigate the damage. Shouldn't be able to build multi-million dollar homes in these areas subject to wide spread disasters. The rest of society should not be a safety net for irresponsible behavior. We have all sorts of laws about risky behavior such as drunk driving, weapon discharge in populated areas, smoking in public, etc. But go ahead and build something that can't be insured in a high risk area.
Placing blame on natural disasters like this, earthquakes, strong storms is just silly cause humans can't do shite to prevent it. However we can learn from them and try to mitigate the damage. Shouldn't be able to build multi-million dollar homes in these areas subject to wide spread disasters. The rest of society should not be a safety net for irresponsible behavior. We have all sorts of laws about risky behavior such as drunk driving, weapon discharge in populated areas, smoking in public, etc. But go ahead and build something that can't be insured in a high risk area.
Last edited:
Get unlimited access today.