Older alums and fans expect more of PSU

[Moogy]

I have one additional point. The game of football changed from the 1960s to the mid 1990s. How do you explain Joe’s ability to adapt and succeed over that period? Joe in his prime would succeed today. He was a winner. Go read Football My Way and you’ll get a small taste of his innovation.
LOL, Betty Sue, sock hop, space race, Nixon. I wasn’t born until 1967.

Focus. My comments were in reply to you suggesting folks wanted us to repeat in the current day something that started over 55 years ago (and, realistically, ended multiple decades ago). That's just stupid.

And, yeah, all those old-timey references were to illustrate just how out of touch those comments are. You weren't even born when JoePa started his PSU head coaching journey. "Why can't we just repeat that? We expect Franklin to do that and we'll criticize him, and want him fired, for not doing so!" Just dumb.

Besides, if we're hoping for Franklin to repeat the first 21 years of JoePa, JoePa didn't win his first Natty until his 17th year, so Franklin has a lot of time left to get there.

All the JoePa worshippers ... they can go ahead and worship their hero. You're not going to talk sense into them anymore than you would have been able to talk sense into a tween girl who thought the Backstreet Boys were the height of music artistry. But just don't let that cult worship bleed into present day. That's all.

 

[Schoolie]

Agreed. College football is certainly not the same. And it didn't need to happen this way. May be wrong, but I blame the NCAA.

They’re certainly a big part of the change, especially on their We-have-no-balls approach to the NIL catastrophe.

 

[Schoolie]

Focus. My comments were in reply to you suggesting folks wanted us to repeat in the current day something that started over 55 years ago (and, realistically, ended multiple decades ago). That's just stupid.

And, yeah, all those old-timey references were to illustrate just how out of touch those comments are. You weren't even born when JoePa started his PSU head coaching journey. "Why can't we just repeat that? We expect Franklin to do that and we'll criticize him, and want him fired, for not doing so!" Just dumb.

Besides, if we're hoping for Franklin to repeat the first 21 years of JoePa, JoePa didn't win his first Natty until his 17th year, so Franklin has a lot of time left to get there.

All the JoePa worshippers ... they can go ahead and worship their hero. You're not going to talk sense into them anymore than you would have been able to talk sense into a tween girl who thought the Backstreet Boys were the height of music artistry. But just don't let that cult worship bleed into present day. That's all.

Moogy, I think you underestimate the so-called JoePa worshippers. You act as though they constantly live in a time warp. And there is no cult worship. They respect a man who actually did a lot of good for much more at Penn State that just football. your comments are way off base, but of course I’m sure no one beyond the age of 17 can talk any sense into you.

 

[Nits1989]

Focus. My comments were in reply to you suggesting folks wanted us to repeat in the current day something that started over 55 years ago (and, realistically, ended multiple decades ago). That's just stupid.

And, yeah, all those old-timey references were to illustrate just how out of touch those comments are. You weren't even born when JoePa started his PSU head coaching journey. "Why can't we just repeat that? We expect Franklin to do that and we'll criticize him, and want him fired, for not doing so!" Just dumb.

Besides, if we're hoping for Franklin to repeat the first 21 years of JoePa, JoePa didn't win his first Natty until his 17th year, so Franklin has a lot of time left to get there.

All the JoePa worshippers ... they can go ahead and worship their hero. You're not going to talk sense into them anymore than you would have been able to talk sense into a tween girl who thought the Backstreet Boys were the height of music artistry. But just don't let that cult worship bleed into present day. That's all.

Lol. How old are you? Are you like 12 and you got ahold of your Dad's computer?

 

[Moogy]

Moogy, I think you underestimate the so-called JoePa worshippers. You act as though they constantly live in a time warp. And there is no cult worship. They respect a man who actually did a lot of good for much more at Penn State that just football. your comments are way off base, but of course I’m sure no one beyond the age of 17 can talk any sense into you.

Thank you for proving me right.

 

[GrimReaper]

Joe succeeding today, as you claim, still would not guarantee a NC for Penn State. I mean if CJF going 11-2 this season is not acceptable outcome, than a hypothetical Joe going 14-1 this season would not be acceptable either, if the ultimate goal is the NC.

Which raises the question of what is acceptable performance. I look for sustained excellence as opposed to single year success (otherwise Ed Orgeron has a lifetime contract). I'd start with a ten year period, with the expectation of being in the top 10 for X (<10) years and contention for championships Z (<X) years. Opinions can differ on the values of X and Z.

 

[Moogy]

Lol. How old are you? Are you like 12 and you got ahold of your Dad's computer?

See above.

 

[BobPSU92]

I wonder if Franklin’s goal actually is a national championship. Seriously. Does he really believe he can win one at Penn State looking honestly at his own ability and also the culture at Penn State? By culture, I don’t think Penn State is or ever will be all-in to be a Tosu or bama for a number of reasons, and perhaps Franklin knows it.

Franklin has said that he would like to be the first African American head coach to win a national championship, but I wonder if he still has that as an achievable goal at Penn State.

 

[GrimReaper]

I wonder if Franklin’s goal actually is a national championship. Seriously. Does he really believe he can win one at Penn State looking honestly at his own ability and also the culture at Penn State? By culture, I don’t think Penn State is or ever will be all-in to be a Tosu or bama for a number of reasons, and perhaps Franklin knows it.

Franklin has said that he would like to be the first African American head coach to win a national championship, but I wonder if he still has that an achievable goal at Penn State.

I believe Franklin has a goal of winning a national championship. Whether he believes he can achieve that at PSU only he could say.

 

[Schoolie]

Thank you for proving me right.

Right about what? That you know nothing of which you speak?

 

[Moogy]

Right about what?

The cult of JoePa worship.

 

[Nits74]

They’re certainly a big part of the change, especially on their We-have-no-balls approach to the NIL catastrophe.

Certainly that, but the NCAA's stubbornly hardline approach in earlier times, such as not even allowing a small stipend to players so that they could enjoy a normal college social life, I think helped lead to where we are now. I can remember Joe commenting on stuff like that. Yet you had the Oklahomas, SEC schools, and probably many others more often than not getting away with boosters compensating players and recruits under the table in various forms.

 

[Nits74]

Joe was in my opinion the greatest coach/educator of all time. He was in fact, an innovator and creative. He found the will and the way to take PSU to the top in perhaps 5 or 6 seasons.
The landscape isn't nearly the same.
Joe in his prime coaching years would be successful in any era.
However, PSU is currently and will likely remain a top 15 top of school in football. An occasional season in the top 10 and a year or two where they don't reach that.
Perhaps the problem is with the expectations of those who believe PSU is a top 5 program.
It just isn't.

Question is Marshall, why isn't Penn State a top 5 program (which I agree it is not), and why can't it get to that level. What in the current landscape prevents that? Demographics, transfer portal, NIL, etc.? You may well be right, but I'd like to see Penn State try, within the boundary of reason.

 

[Stephen Light]

That‘s fair, but he was an Ivy League grad. He had a great football mind. He overcame a lot of obstacles to make Penn State great. In his day, he was a great recruiter. He was considered an innovator. He believed that athletes should be paid at a time it was not legal to do. He had a great will to win. And he was highly successful. I’d bet on him to be a winner today.

If so, he would not the same man. Unless he was coaching at a military academy. His entire conception of the world is passing away as his generation reaches the last days. His approach would not work with players, students, administrators, etc. today.

 

[MacNit]

Coaches like Joe in his prime don't grow on trees and PSU hasn't been "elite" in a long time. Some people cannot hear that for some reason. The program right now is no different today than it was in Joe's last 15 years. Well except two down years were 6-6 and 7-6 versus 4 losing seasons in 5 years. If people want to pony up the cash and try something new....by all means have at it, but those of us living in reality know that isn't occurring. I was simply pointing out not much has really changed at PSU from a football standpoint.

The issue is not whether or not we are elite or how long it has been. But if we can return again and does the University want to do what is necessary. We are paying elite price for our head coach. We have the fanbase (stadium, TV ratings, etc).

Will mediocrity continue to be accepted? If so, we could sure find ways to spend less $ and lower tbe profile.

University PR portrays a program that wants to be elite. Results? Not so much. And excuse making and complacency seems to rule the day.

 

[Schoolie]

The cult of JoePa worship.

You know, Moogy, you are simply making a total jerk of yourself and pissing off a lot more people beyond me with your cult claims. I’m sure that’s what you want to do. Why you’re fixated on Paterno is beyond me. Some people, including me, have recounted his career and career achievements here. No one has fallen on their knees in worship of him. Yet you seem to think otherwise, or so your words seem to indicate. We have Franklin haters, Clifford haters, and now an apparent Joe Paterno hater. What’s the point, man?

 

[Schoolie]

Certainly that, but the NCAA's stubbornly hardline approach in earlier times, such as not even allowing a small stipend to players so that they could enjoy a normal college social life, I think helped lead to where we are now. I can remember Joe commenting on stuff like that. Yet you had the Oklahomas, SEC schools, and probably many others more often than not getting away with boosters compensating players and recruits under the table in various forms.

Totally true. There have been some good money-under-the-table stories told in the Leions Den by people with first-hand experience. Now those stories don’t even seem to matter; the money is on top of the table for everyone to see. One day the NIL house of cards is going to tumble.

 

[PSU12046]

His approach would not work with players, students, administrators, etc. today.

and you KNOW this how?

 

[marshall23]

I misread your remark. I’m sorry for that. We do agree. I didn’t want replacement of Joe. I left PSU in 1989. With Joe on the sideline until 2011, it felt like I never left PSU. It was a great feeling for me. I can’t really explain it. My time at PSU was special and he was a big part of it. I wasn’t on the team, but his effect went further. It went to the entire school. His confidence, his determination. He was a role model. I’m probably very tough on Franklin because of Joe.

Love Joe. Tried to emulate him when I coached. My high school coach was Joe Sarra, who was on the PSU staff from about 1985-2000. I used to visit, especially during spring practice and bring my sons. Those were great times and memories.

 

[marshall23]

Question is Marshall, why isn't Penn State a top 5 program (which I agree it is not), and why can't it get to that level. What in the current landscape prevents that? Demographics, transfer portal, NIL, etc.? You may well be right, but I'd like to see Penn State try, within the boundary of reason.

That's at least a ten page response. The condensed answer is that at Alabama the tail wags the dog. It has never been that way at Penn State and perhaps it never will.
Look at revenue. How many sports does PSU offer....right down to a fencing team....many Olympic sports. How many does Alabama sponsor. Where does the money come from to promote fencing etc. and what is the opportunity cost?Alabama football rolls around in money. Sore topic here, but it's a fact that PSU football facilities are not near top 20.
We could have a discussion about the admissions department and the hurdles PSU has to jump over that I guarantee you Nick Saban does not. This is an issue with transfers and juco kids especially.
Pa. is no longer the fertile recruiting area it was back when Joe was in his heyday.
Remember when Joe said "we'll take your money, but we don't want your two cents?" I think the whole model at PSU is established to keep football in perspective.....Joe wanted it that way. Personally, I like it that way. I don't want to sacrifice values to win a NC.....but that's just me.

 

[marshall23]

Moogy, I think you underestimate the so-called JoePa worshippers. You act as though they constantly live in a time warp. And there is no cult worship. They respect a man who actually did a lot of good for much more at Penn State that just football. your comments are way off base, but of course I’m sure no one beyond the age of 17 can talk any sense into you.

Got to feel sorry for anyone who only looks at Joe as a football coach.

 

[marshall23]

If so, he would not the same man. Unless he was coaching at a military academy. His entire conception of the world is passing away as his generation reaches the last days. His approach would not work with players, students, administrators, etc. today.

Joe was a pretty smart and shrewd guy. Ever speak to him? Making the assumption that if he were born in 1968 he couldn't have excelled is folly. Of course his methods would have been different. Everyone is a product of their experiences in life.

 

[Moogy]

You know, Moogy, you are simply making a total jerk of yourself and pissing off a lot more people beyond me with your cult claims. I’m sure that’s what you want to do. Why you’re fixated on Paterno is beyond me. Some people, including me, have recounted his career and career achievements here. No one has fallen on their knees in worship of him. Yet you seem to think otherwise, or so your words seem to indicate. We have Franklin haters, Clifford haters, and now an apparent Joe Paterno hater. What’s the point, man?

Don't be stupid. I don't hate Joe Paterno. I've said on here that he brought PSU to football prominence and had a dominant, elite run. I just see all the sides, however. He stayed on way too long, and the latter half (roughly) of his coaching career was a mix of awful, OK and good, with 3 flashes in the pan (with much more awful than elite). But what happens is, everything going on now is clouded by the mythology of JoePa and his career here. I mean, it's the basis of this thread. The expectations are just so high ... why? Because of JoePa's entire career? Nope ... because, as I pointed out in this thread and/or the "10-2" thread, the second half of it (the last 25 years, actually) definitely wasn't "elite". But if you point that out, it's met with shock and awe. How dare you speak of the legend like that?! Franklin's **** on consistently, because he doesn't measure up to some imaginary (well, since 1987) level of achievement that even JoePa himself didn't measure up to. But in the cult's noggins he did. He's so great, that the head coach should be a guy who coached here with JoePa, or who talked well of JoePa. Get over it! MANY (definitely "most" from my personal experience) "older alums and fans," as the thread title indicates, remember 25 years of wishing JoePa would either hand over the keys to the car, hoping that one really good/great season was going to springboard us back to dominance, or resigning ourselves to the fact that we're captive to JoePa's wishes on when he wanted to step aside so we could get a fresh start. And then there's others, who just have this blurred vision of 44 years of greatness, and whomever comes in here better duplicate this fantasy, or get to steppin'.

How about we be appreciative that the guys who came in after the utter, nearly fatal, disaster have us back to (mostly) winning football, watching (mostly) competitive games and occasionally making some noise with the big boys? Of course I hope the program takes the next step ... that'd be fun ... but we're pretty effin' lucky to be having this much fun with PSU football as it is. And we didn't just come out of some era of dominance which someone needs to recreate, or it'll be am unacceptable disappointment.

 

[marshall23]

I wonder if Franklin’s goal actually is a national championship. Seriously. Does he really believe he can win one at Penn State looking honestly at his own ability and also the culture at Penn State? By culture, I don’t think Penn State is or ever will be all-in to be a Tosu or bama for a number of reasons, and perhaps Franklin knows it.

Franklin has said that he would like to be the first African American head coach to win a national championship, but I wonder if he still has that as an achievable goal at Penn State.

I think it's still his goal. But his vision has improved over the past 3 years and he's seen things he didn't when he first got here.

 

[Schoolie]

Don't be stupid. I don't hate Joe Paterno. I've said on here that he brought PSU to football prominence and had a dominant, elite run. I just see all the sides, however. He stayed on way too long, and the latter half (roughly) of his coaching career was a mix of awful, OK and good, with 3 flashes in the pan (with much more awful than elite). But what happens is, everything going on now is clouded by the mythology of JoePa and his career here. I mean, it's the basis of this thread. The expectations are just so high ... why? Because of JoePa's entire career? Nope ... because, as I pointed out in this thread and/or the "10-2" thread, the second half of it (the last 25 years, actually) definitely wasn't "elite". But if you point that out, it's met with shock and awe. How dare you speak of the legend like that?! Franklin's **** on consistently, because he doesn't measure up to some imaginary (well, since 1987) level of achievement that even JoePa himself didn't measure up to. But in the cult's noggins he did. He's so great, that the head coach should be a guy who coached here with JoePa, or who talked well of JoePa. Get over it! MANY (definitely "most" from my personal experience) "older alums and fans," as the thread title indicates, remember 25 years of wishing JoePa would either hand over the keys to the car, hoping that one really good/great season was going to springboard us back to dominance, or resigning ourselves to the fact that we're captive to JoePa's wishes on when he wanted to step aside so we could get a fresh start. And then there's others, who just have this blurred vision of 44 years of greatness, and whomever comes in here better duplicate this fantasy, or get to steppin'.

How about we be appreciative that the guys who came in after the utter, nearly fatal, disaster have us back to (mostly) winning football, watching (mostly) competitive games and occasionally making some noise with the big boys? Of course I hope the program takes the next step ... that'd be fun ... but we're pretty effin' lucky to be having this much fun with PSU football as it is. And we didn't just come out of some era of dominance which someone needs to recreate, or it'll be am unacceptable disappointment.

Goodnight, Moogy. Hope you enjoy the rest of the season.

 

[MacNit]

Focus. My comments were in reply to you suggesting folks wanted us to repeat in the current day something that started over 55 years ago (and, realistically, ended multiple decades ago). That's just stupid.

And, yeah, all those old-timey references were to illustrate just how out of touch those comments are. You weren't even born when JoePa started his PSU head coaching journey. "Why can't we just repeat that? We expect Franklin to do that and we'll criticize him, and want him fired, for not doing so!" Just dumb.

Besides, if we're hoping for Franklin to repeat the first 21 years of JoePa, JoePa didn't win his first Natty until his 17th year, so Franklin has a lot of time left to get there.

All the JoePa worshippers ... they can go ahead and worship their hero. You're not going to talk sense into them anymore than you would have been able to talk sense into a tween girl who thought the Backstreet Boys were the height of music artistry. But just don't let that cult worship bleed into present day. That's all.

And does all this rhetoric mean that a Franklin is now better than an average coach?

 

[MacNit]

That's at least a ten page response. The condensed answer is that at Alabama the tail wags the dog. It has never been that way at Penn State and perhaps it never will.
Look at revenue. How many sports does PSU offer....right down to a fencing team....many Olympic sports. How many does Alabama sponsor. Where does the money come from to promote fencing etc. and what is the opportunity cost?Alabama football rolls around in money. Sore topic here, but it's a fact that PSU football facilities are not near top 20.
We could have a discussion about the admissions department and the hurdles PSU has to jump over that I guarantee you Nick Saban does not. This is an issue with transfers and juco kids especially.
Pa. is no longer the fertile recruiting area it was back when Joe was in his heyday.
Remember when Joe said "we'll take your money, but we don't want your two cents?" I think the whole model at PSU is established to keep football in perspective.....Joe wanted it that way. Personally, I like it that way. I don't want to sacrifice values to win a NC.....but that's just me.

What values? These kids are now paid professionals.

 

[Classof09]

The cult of JoePa worship.

Do you have to comment on everything?

You know, Moogy, you are simply making a total jerk of yourself and pissing off a lot more people beyond me with your cult claims. I’m sure that’s what you want to do. Why you’re fixated on Paterno is beyond me. Some people, including me, have recounted his career and career achievements here. No one has fallen on their knees in worship of him. Yet you seem to think otherwise, or so your words seem to indicate. We have Franklin haters, Clifford haters, and now an apparent Joe Paterno hater. What’s the point, man?

He’s a troll.

 

[Schoolie]

Do you have to comment on everything?

He’s a troll.

How’s that?

 

[Classof09]

How’s that?

Not referring to you about commenting on everything or being a troll. That would be Moogy who comments just to act like a fool.

 

[Stephen Light]

Joe was a pretty smart and shrewd guy. Ever speak to him? Making the assumption that if he were born in 1968 he couldn't have excelled is folly. Of course his methods would have been different. Everyone is a product of their experiences in life.

I was observing that the Joe we knew was a product of the time he was born in, much like 99% of people are. I am sure he was very smart and would have succeeded in many professions across any time period. My observation was limited to asserting that transporting him, fully grown as the man he was during his career, into today’s college football environment would not work.
You make a good case that I could be wrong. We’ll never know.

 

[Stephen Light]

and you KNOW this how?

It is a simple assertion, that, of course, none of us can know for sure. Score one for you on the premise that one cannot predict anything across time in an alternate universe that can never be experienced.

I’ll not use colloquial expressions in the future, but instead try to be more precise.

As you don’t consider conjecture a valid exercise, I think I can safely assume that any effort to guess about Joe’s effectiveness in a completely changed college football universe is just a silly waste of time. This evening, I agree.

Thank you for your input.

 

[PSU12046]

It is a simple assertion, that, of course, none of us can know for sure. Score one for you on the premise that one cannot predict anything across time in an alternate universe that can never be experienced.

I’ll not use colloquial expressions in the future, but instead try to be more precise.

As you don’t consider conjecture a valid exercise, I think I can safely assume that any effort to guess about Joe’s effectiveness in a completely changed college football universe is just a silly waste of time. This evening, I agree.

Thank you for your input.

Thank you for your follow up. Some of us just tire of the hyperbole on here. You explained your stance professionally, which is refreshing here.
Looking forward to PSU sports discussions going forward.

 

[Moogy]

And does all this rhetoric mean that a Franklin is now better than an average coach?

Of course he is.

 

[West Coast Nit]

The condensed answer is that at Alabama the tail wags the dog.

Then there is Oklahoma.

In the early glory days of University Oklahoma football – just after the school had won its first mythical national championship – then-University President Dr. George L. Cross found himself defending a budget request to the State Legislature’s appropriations committee.

''Yes, that's all well and good,'' responded one State Senator. ''But what kind of football team are we going to have this year?''

Dr. Cross’s cynical but witty reply: ''We want to build a university our football team can be proud of.''

 

[marshall23]

The issue is not whether or not we are elite or how long it has been. But if we can return again and does the University want to do what is necessary. We are paying elite price for our head coach. We have the fanbase (stadium, TV ratings, etc).

Will mediocrity continue to be accepted? If so, we could sure find ways to spend less $ and lower tbe profile.

University PR portrays a program that wants to be elite. Results? Not so much. And excuse making and complacency seems to rule the day.

"WE" are not paying an elite price for OUR coach. At least I'm not. I just checked my bank statement.
One way to contribute to lowering the profile is to simply go away.

 

[marshall23]

And does all this rhetoric mean that a Franklin is now better than an average coach?

Better than average? Yes

 

[marshall23]

What values? These kids are now paid professionals.

You don't know any professionals with values? Doctors, lawyers, teachers, Law enforcement?

 

[Moogy]

Do you have to comment on everything?

No.

 

[EPC FAN]

I may not be liked after this….
As great as Joe Paterno was, the game of college football and all that surrounds it today, IMO is something he would not thrive or maybe even survive.

OL

If the pezzonovante of college football had listened to the guy from Brooklyn this could have been avoided.