OT: American Labor

[johnson86-1]

Mstateglfr:

I have never said it is impossible to improve and if you have interpreted my posts to mean that, please take this opportunity to recognize that is not what I have said.

Also mstateglfr

But screw it, I got mine so they need to just do the impossible and pull themselves up their bootstraps!

 

[mstateglfr]

So many teachers that became teachers using the alternative route. In other words, non-teachers that did not major in education getting alternative certification because $37k plus local supplement plus pension plus less work is better than the alternative jobs they can get with a four year degree.

I'm not sure about what happening now, but two years ago, that was a pretty high floor. Take out engineering and accounting, and how many four year degrees in Mississippi are going to average more than $37k as a starting salary, much less have it as a floor? And then get a pension with a COLA on top of it? They're certainly not killing it, but there are a lot of college graduates that have been working ten years that wish they had the security, pay, benefits, and time off that teachers have. And with the median household income being $45k in Mississippi, that also seems like a pretty good starting salary? Two first year teachers with the minimum certification and no local supplement are going to make 164% of the median household income and also have retirement while having more time off? Not saying I want to do that, but it's also crazy that people talk about teachers needing second jobs just to make it.

Thank you for explaining what you meant in that first part. In Iowa, you cant teach in public schools without a teaching degree. I would not be able to become a teacher even though I have an undergrad degree and even a bunch of extra hours tacked on. Your scenario wasnt even in my mind as an option, given that it isnt an option here.
I do agree that teaching is a better job than some alternatives, so sure you will get people that would rather teach. At the same time, when there are 32000 public teachers and you are 3000 teachers short of ideal, you have a shortage and that shortage is not translating to more pay. <---that is the claim I have been focusing on here since it does not apply.

https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2022/01/10/mississippi-teacher-pay-raise/9159744002/

[FONT=&quot]The average Mississippi teacher with 15 years of experience takes home just over $28,000 per year, the education board found. The board recommended raising pay to boost teacher retention.[/FONT]

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Play around with this:http://https://www.opportunityatlas.org/

What you are describing are exceptional people from abroad. If you ran the numbers, you'd find that an infinitesimally (<-had to look that spelling up) percentage of the population of any of those countries actually does what you are describing. That's not unlike moving from poor to not poor/middle class/rich in the US. Possible, yes. Probable, no. It takes an exceptional person who is also presented with the exact right circumstances. Here is a real life example. I have a friend from Cameroon Africa who is finishing his masters degree and planning to go back to Cameroon to help others. Years ago, he got "lucky" and won a lottery in Cameroon. That got him a one way plane ticket to New York. He bounced from NY to AL to TX sleeping on couches of people that had some connection back to Cameroon. Then wore out his welcome (i.e. they were too poor in to support him and he wasn't employable yet), so he spent years in and out of homelessness, drugs, etc. Went through a one year program in a men's home, got clean, started college, met a bunch of folks that would support him moving forward in life. Relapsed. Recovered. Finished his degree. Got a masters.

My point, not many people have what it takes to do that. It took him from age 18 - 40+ to do so. I have several more examples of US folks going from the worst possible circumstances to success, but as a percentage, those are almost not countable vs the ones that are not able to make that leap. It would be like me asking you why you aren't a billionaire since the US seems to have quite a few. If you are like me, you can't conceive of a path in life that would get you to be a billionaire. If, however, you are a billionaire, I sincerely hope that none of this hit you wrong way and may be we can be best friends?

 

[dorndawg]

Play around with this:http://https://www.opportunityatlas.org/

What you are describing are exceptional people from abroad. If you ran the numbers, you'd find that an infinitesimally (<-had to look that spelling up) percentage of the population of any of those countries actually does what you are describing. That's not unlike moving from poor to not poor/middle class/rich in the US. Possible, yes. Probable, no. It takes an exceptional person who is also presented with the exact right circumstances. Here is a real life example. I have a friend from Cameroon Africa who is finishing his masters degree and planning to go back to Cameroon to help others. Years ago, he got "lucky" and won a lottery in Cameroon. That got him a one way plane ticket to New York. He bounced from NY to AL to TX sleeping on couches of people that had some connection back to Cameroon. Then wore out his welcome (i.e. they were too poor in to support him and he wasn't employable yet), so he spent years in and out of homelessness, drugs, etc. Went through a one year program in a men's home, got clean, started college, met a bunch of folks that would support him moving forward in life. Relapsed. Recovered. Finished his degree. Got a masters.

My point, not many people have what it takes to do that. It took him from age 18 - 40+ to do so. I have several more examples of US folks going from the worst possible circumstances to success, but as a percentage, those are almost not countable vs the ones that are not able to make that leap. It would be like me asking you why you aren't a billionaire since the US seems to have quite a few. If you are like me, you can't conceive of a path in life that would get you to be a billionaire. If, however, you are a billionaire, I sincerely hope that none of this hit you wrong way and may be we can be best friends?

Fishwater is never going to take you on one of his PJ's now.

 

[johnson86-1]

I'd pay good money to watch some folks in this thread work 1 hour at a busy fast food drive thru window.

In all seriousness it would be good if more people had to have low wage and/or manual labor jobs before or during college. I think a lot of our idiotic policy comes from people that have never even been exposed to the jobs that make their life possible, much less actually work in them. Something besides being a barista or waiter/waitress.

 

[mstateglfr]

Mstateglfr: I have never said it is impossible to improve and if you have interpreted my posts to mean that, please take this opportunity to recognize that is not what I have said.



Also mstateglfr- They need to just do the impossible and pull themselves up their bootstraps!

Holy 17.
Try pulling yourself up by your bootstraps- it is impossible. I was taking the phrase and mocking it by using it literally. It is literally impossible to pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

To be clear- I do not think it is impossible to improve your socioeconomic situation in life.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I certainly understand what you are saying, but my wife, a teacher for a long, long time now, could quit tomorrow and make more money that she does teaching. She just loves doing what she does. I have a window seat watching these young teachers come in, and it is not uncommon for them to quit by year 3 and go into real estate, or go back to school for nursing, like two recent ones that I know did. If they are single, it doesn't take long to realize that even renting an apartment on their salary, without roommates, makes it hard to have any money left each month to do anything extra. $37k only looks good by comparison to our overall crappy wages in MS.

 

[harrybollocks]

Yeah but that’s the beauty of this system.

When you 17 up there are consequences.

They got bailed out using taxpayer money and no one was prosecuted for the 2008 financial collapse except an minor player or two (compare that to the much smaller S&L crisis where a bunch of bankers were prosecuted). The Fed pumped trillions into the economy, ours and the world economy, and bailed out businesses.

 

[DerHntr]

No, I dont think it is impossible for people to climb the socioeconomic ladder. I could point to a ton of people I know who have improved their situation in life compared to where they started.
I have never said it is impossible to improve and if you have interpreted my posts to mean that, please take this opportunity to recognize that is not what I have said.

When there are 330mm people in a country, you can point to a lot of examples to 'prove' a point. I can absolutely cite lots of examples of people managing to overcome adversity and improve their life relative to where they started. I can also absolutely cite lots of examples of people not having the support system to learn the necessary skills to improve on their own and when coupled with the lack of assistance in getting started as an adult, they stall out or regress.
Hell, I can also cite examples where people with all the benefits in the world as kids end up being pieces of **** as adults and wasting all that they were handed.

The initial claim was that we would all end up right where we are if there were a reset. I think there would be people who would rise up if given equal opportunity thru life and I also think there would be people who fall down if they werent afforded extra opportunity.
Why that is controversial, I am not sure. But apparently it is.

I was referencing this tongue-in-cheek commentary by you. I even quoted it in my post. Are you actually saying that you weren’t making fun of that attitude toward pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? I don’t believe you if so.

“But screw it, I got mine so they need to just do the impossible and pull themselves up their bootstraps!”

 

[harrybollocks]

Value creation vs. value transferrence. You can get incredibly wealthy by capturing the value created by others.

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

I think this is an example of sanctifying the market. A more or less free market is by far the best thing for humanity as a whole, but that doesn't mean that people are paid what they are worth or what they are paid for is worthwhile. Hedgefunds provide a service, but they don't get paid a lot because providing some indirect pricing information is so valuable. They get paid a lot because when a lot of money changes hands, there is a chance to capture some of it and make a lot of money, and you only can do it if you're better at than other people. Burger flippers don't get paid much not because what they are doing isn't valuable, but because almost anybody can do it. As far as "production" goes, the burger flipper probably provides as much ore more benefit to humanity.

Part of the problem here is that we, as a country, have confused pro-capitalist policies with pro-market policies. Policy that enables companies to own oil wells, pipelines, refineries, and end-use sellers so that they can restrict supply and increase profits is pro-capitalist (the capital behind company ownership is making a killing), but it is not pro-market. We enable Wall Street profits because we are pro-capital, but we allow it to harm markets because we are not pro-market anymore. There's nothing free about a market with monopolistic forces at play, but we've trained people to think that is the ideal of free markets.

CEOs and executives get paid well because of bias, and that they indirectly set their own pay. There's no logical correlation between their ability, their pool of replacements, and their pay.

 

[dorndawg]

In all seriousness it would be good if more people had to have low wage and/or manual labor jobs before or during college. I think a lot of our idiotic policy comes from people that have never even been exposed to the jobs that make their life possible, much less actually work in them. Something besides being a barista or waiter/waitress.

I don't disagree, other than to point out barista or waiting tables is also damn hard work.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

I’m heading there now.

 

[DerHntr]

And this is where I disagree on what is “success” when coming to this country or even growing up here. My father made a life better than the one he was born into. It wasn’t immensely better but it’s better. He helped his children take advantage of his hard work. I’m now doing the same for my kids. I am not rich but I’m bettering my situation. I don’t need to be a millionaire, billionaire, retire early, etc. I think that I am quite successful because my goals are realistic and I am meeting them. We have millions of immigrants in the country right now who are busting their asses to do better in life. It might not meet your standards of success and they may not go to college like in your example, but your standards aren’t their standards.

Your link is interesting and I’ll look through. I like data.

Unfortunately I’m not a billionaire, so we can’t be friends.**