OT: Anna Wolfe Going to Jail?

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Boom Boom

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You are wrong on every single point.
Lol.
Municipalities in large part fund themselves.
"In large part". Funding matters.
Well run ones make good use of what outside sources they do have.
Because funding matters.
Jackson doesn't fund itself well and botched all the outside stuff.
You mean, the legislature refused to fund them.
It's been that way since at least when I lived down there in the late 80s.
Yes, the legislature has refused to fund them since at least the 80s. We both know why.
It's a lost cause until there is a total replacement of the political class there. That will never happen.
Yes, we need a total replacement of our legislature, agreed.
 

garddog

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You are wrong on every single point. Municipalities in large part fund themselves. Well run ones make good use of what outside sources they do have. Jackson doesn't fund itself well and botched all the outside stuff. It's been that way since at least when I lived down there in the late 80s. It's a lost cause until there is a total replacement of the political class there. That will never happen.
Yep, the way most small towns get things done is through federal match grants. Water, sewer, roads all have federal money they can apply for, but they have to fund part of It through money they collect.

The money has to be spent on what they get it for. No idea how Jackson hasn't been able to do the same over the years.
 

thatsbaseball

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Yep, the way most small towns get things done is through federal match grants. Water, sewer, roads all have federal money they can apply for, but they have to fund part of It through money they collect.

The money has to be spent on what they get it for. No idea how Jackson hasn't been able to do the same over the years.
This may help shed some light

 

garddog

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That article explains a lot. They wanted free money, not match money.
Jackson added non fundable beautician to it, which got it kicked back. Then they opted to submit large dollar amounts instead of breaking it up into smaller projects to take advantage of the full match.
 
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Boom Boom

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Yep, the way most small towns get things done is through federal match grants. Water, sewer, roads all have federal money they can apply for, but they have to fund part of It through money they collect.

The money has to be spent on what they get it for. No idea how Jackson hasn't been able to do the same over the years.
Most federal match grants get distributed by the state.
 

L4Dawg

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Lol.

"In large part". Funding matters.

Because funding matters.

You mean, the legislature refused to fund them.

Yes, the legislature has refused to fund them since at least the 80s. We both know why.

Yes, we need a total replacement of our legislature, agreed.
You are just flat out wrong. "There" means the Jackson political class, not the state one, although that wouldn't hurt either. I know why, you obviously don't. Read the article above that thatsbaseball linked. That spells it out. The Jackson municipal government is not well run.
 

She Mate Me

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Lol.

"In large part". Funding matters.

Because funding matters.

You mean, the legislature refused to fund them.

Yes, the legislature has refused to fund them since at least the 80s. We both know why.

Yes, we need a total replacement of our legislature, agreed.

You're not nearly as clever as you pretend you are.

And I think you know it, despite your diligent efforts to make us think differently.

The legislature is not Jackson's problem, or it's savior.
 
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Boom Boom

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This may help shed some light

It does, thanks. MS agencies were essentially found "not guilty" in the same way OJ was, it doesn't mean they were innocent. The law is set up to allow the actions of the legislature.

"Loans to low-income communities like Jackson are subject to partial loan forgiveness, depending on the relative degree of income disparity in the community. Technically, communities that fall below less than 70% of the state’s median household income are eligible for 45% principal forgiveness, meaning that they would only have to pay back a little over half of the loan—a potent vehicle for delivering what are essentially grant funds to needy communities.

But MSDH sets a cap on principal forgiveness due to the limited amount of funds available. The maximum is $500,000 per project. For a small community seeking a $1 million loan, nearly half could be forgiven. But Jackson’s water needs are measured in the hundreds of millions: accordingly, all of Jackson’s loans have been in the tens of millions. Even at the maximum possible forgiveness, only a small percentage of the principal was ever eligible for forgiveness.

MDEQ’s cap is in some critical ways even more restrictive; while the amount of principal forgiveness available is even higher, Jackson is categorically disfavored from accessing the subsidized funds. MDEQ places all cities with less than 4,000 residents and median household income below $40,000 at the top of the priority list for subsidized funding. But EPA pointed out that such criteria favor small majority-white cities and small majority-Black cities—finding no evidence that such a cap is racially disproportionate.

The EPA acknowledged these limitations. “The forgiveness cap may be preventing Mississippi from supporting low-income communities with larger scale projects that are deterred by the large loan award needed and relatively small loan forgiveness available,” the agency wrote in its letter to MSDH."
 

Boom Boom

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You are just flat out wrong. "There" means the Jackson political class, not the state one, although that wouldn't hurt either. I know why, you obviously don't. Read the article above that thatsbaseball linked. That spells it out. The Jackson municipal government is not well run.
I copied the relevant parts of that link that you clearly didn't read.

Screenshot_20240706_142533_Facebook.jpg
 

Boom Boom

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You're not nearly as clever as you pretend you are.

And I think you know it, despite your diligent efforts to make us think differently.

The legislature is not Jackson's problem, or it's Savior.
Is this the part where I am a prick for how I write?

I agree, the Leg is not the whole problem, nor the savior. I am saying the legislature is PART of the problem. Agree or disagree?
 

thatsbaseball

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Is this the part where I am a prick for how I write?

I agree, the Leg is not the whole problem, nor the savior. I am saying the legislature is PART of the problem. Agree or disagree?
My perception (right or wrong) has been that the legislature's problem was not so much allocating funds as it was what happened to the funds after they were allocated to the City of Jackson.
 

She Mate Me

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Is this the part where I am a prick for how I write?

I agree, the Leg is not the whole problem, nor the savior. I am saying the legislature is PART of the problem. Agree or disagree?

Jackson is so badly run that I am not going to say the legislature is part of the problem. It could definitely be more of the solution, but considering what is "running" the city, I completely understand any reluctance they have to set money on fire.
 

SteelCurtain74

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When I started this thread two days ago, never in a million years did I think it would go in the directions it has but here we are so let me just recap where we are so far for those just joining us:

Jackson sucks - check
Racism is alive and well in Mississippi - check
Jackson leadership sucks - check
Mississippi will always be last - check
State legislature sucks - check
@ZombieKissinger has no plans on coming back to Jackson or Mississippi- check

Feel free to add anything I may have missed. Now back to our regular programming.
 

DesotoCountyDawg

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When I started this thread two days ago, never in a million years did I think it would go in the directions it has but here we are so let me just recap where we are so far for those just joining us:

Jackson sucks - check
Racism is alive and well in Mississippi - check
Jackson leadership sucks - check
Mississippi will always be last - check
State legislature sucks - check
@ZombieKissinger has no plans on coming back to Jackson or Mississippi- check

Feel free to add anything I may have missed. Now back to our regular programming.
It wouldn’t be Sixpack if we didn’t chase some rabbits.
 
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garddog

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Boom Boom thinks Jackson should have the rules bent instead of following the rules that are in place.

Jackson wanted full grants, not loans like everyone else. Jackson's grant writers put non fundable additions in the grant paperwork. Even small towns have to break projects up and write separate grant requests to get everything funded, why didn't Jackson do this? Laziness? Ineptitude? Pure Malfeasance?

Just stop with blaming people that had nothing to do with why their project failed. You make the system work and that means you put in the effort.
 
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Boom Boom

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My perception (right or wrong) has been that the legislature's problem was not so much allocating funds as it was what happened to the funds after they were allocated to the City of Jackson.
Since the legislature has a decades long history of not allocating funds to Jackson.....it's pretty hard to blame Jackson for that part. Not that Jackson was smart with their own funds or what they did get allocated...but what city ever is? Seems the underfunded had an impact. As should be expected, right?
 

Boom Boom

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Boom Boom thinks Jackson should have the rules bent instead of following the rules that are in place.

Jackson wanted full grants, not loans like everyone else. Jackson's grant writers put non fundable additions in the grant paperwork. Even small towns have to break projects up and write separate grant requests to get everything funded, why didn't Jackson do this? Laziness? Ineptitude? Pure Malfeasance?

Just stop with blaming people that had nothing to do with why their project failed. You make the system work and that means you put in the effort.
I think those "rules" were created to specifically achieve an end of underfunding Jackson.
 

patdog

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Most federal match grants get distributed by the state.
Federal grant match money is usually automatically funded 50% by the state. Locals still have to fund 50% of the match. And there’s no way the state somehow left Jackson out of the 50% funding. You’re just trolling on this. And not even very well.
 
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Dawgbite

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It wouldn’t be Sixpack if we didn’t chase some rabbits.
 
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The Peeper

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Jackson's problem is not racism. It's not being run well.
Chucky Labamba would definitely label you a racist though for saying that because almost every single elected position in the city and most in the county are of one race.
 

L4Dawg

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Chucky Labamba would definitely label you a racist though for saying that because almost every single elected position in the city and most in the county are of one race.
I'm sure. Not running things well is a human problem, not a racial one.
 

johnson86-1

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Just seems about 20 years too late. At least. We're not pulling in more jobs to Jackson even if it's the safest metro in the world. Probably not even if the state legislature would approve Nissan-level incentives....which they never would, because too many state legislators hate Jackson. We all know why.
The Jackson Metro area has probably been the biggest beneficiary of incentives in Mississippi by far.

Continental Tires, Amazon, and Nissan were all huge deals. The problem is Jackson isn't benefitting as much as it should from those deals because it can't handle the basics. Provide running water and functioning sewer and provide a safe environment and Jackson would be doing well even without good schools or roads.

If Jackson could do that, and it could create provide a good location for a big investment (maybe they already can? I assume most of the good land is already developed and it'd have to be brownfield? Don't really know though), then they could compete for one of these huge investments.
 
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mstateglfr

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The Jackson Metro area has probably been the biggest beneficiary of incentives in Mississippi by far.

Continental Tires, Amazon, and Nissan were all huge deals. The problem is Jackson isn't benefitting as much as it should from those deals because it can't handle the basics. Provide running water and functioning sewer and provide a safe environment and Jackson would be doing well even without good schools or roads.
I have found that 'the basics' are often some of the most difficult things to provide because they cost so much to fix/maintain/replace, they are typically very old and new standards or code means delays and increased costs, and because they are the base and the base of city infrastructure must be the extensive and robust in order to hold the city up.

Its just an interesting that such complex services are 'the basics', since that phrase is often used as a way to describe things that are easily accomplished or attained.

To be clear, I agree with what you typed above.
 

Anon1704414204

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Since the legislature has a decades long history of not allocating funds to Jackson.....it's pretty hard to blame Jackson for that part. Not that Jackson was smart with their own funds or what they did get allocated...but what city ever is? Seems the underfunded had an impact. As should be expected, right?
"What City Ever Is"? Is that a legit excuse? Just keep throwing more and more money into corrupt and incompetent hands till it gets better?
 
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Boom Boom

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Race played a huge part of it, but not in the way you are implying. Racial politics have ensured that they have had terrible leadership for the last couple of decades.
Got it, the MS state legislature of decades past were paragons of virtue that never did Jackson wrong in any way. Sure sure. MS never had a single racist legislator, ever. Sure Sure, how could I have ever doubted yall.
 

johnson86-1

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I have found that 'the basics' are often some of the most difficult things to provide because they cost so much to fix/maintain/replace, they are typically very old and new standards or code means delays and increased costs, and because they are the base and the base of city infrastructure must be the extensive and robust in order to hold the city up.

Its just an interesting that such complex services are 'the basics', since that phrase is often used as a way to describe things that are easily accomplished or attained.

To be clear, I agree with what you typed above.
The expense is part of it but the other huge part of it is that you have the flexibility to defer maintenance and replacement, and it's tempting for politicians to do that and push those costs into the future for future politicians and taxpayers to deal with. Jackson is not really unique in that regard. Lots of better run cities do it but get away with it partly because there is still some moderate amount of growth to pay for it and usually somebody acts like a grownup when it gets really dire. Jackson is unique because it applied for so few grants to help pay for some infrastructure and then when they got screwed on the digital water meters (also not unique to Jackson), they gave away a huge chunk of the money they could have recovered by using a contingency fee.

Not much difference than what we are doing on a federal level with entitlements and spending in general. We are not going to have adults take charge until we are on the precipice of a disaster, and we may not do until after we have a disaster. Going to be much more painful than it should be, but at the federal level, there will at least be a bunch of middle class and lower upper class people that can be taxed that can't easily move to a different jurisdiction.
 
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johnson86-1

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Got it, the MS state legislature of decades past were paragons of virtue that never did Jackson wrong in any way. Sure sure. MS never had a single racist legislator, ever. Sure Sure, how could I have ever doubted yall.
The state legislature has been pretty dumb in many ways on multitudes of issues and sure, the Jackson metro area would be more prosperous if they had done better. But Jackson has not suffered as the surrounding areas have exploded because Jackson was somehow mistreated by the legislature. Jackson has suffered because of self-inflicted harms for the most part. It had a huge advantage with all the state and federal jobs inside the city limits and screwed the pooch.
 

Boom Boom

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The state legislature has been pretty dumb in many ways on multitudes of issues and sure, the Jackson metro area would be more prosperous if they had done better. But Jackson has not suffered as the surrounding areas have exploded because Jackson was somehow mistreated by the legislature. Jackson has suffered because of self-inflicted harms for the most part. It had a huge advantage with all the state and federal jobs inside the city limits and screwed the pooch.
Getting more reasonable....

Need to work in an understanding that aging inner city cores are more expensive to maintain (both physically and socially) than the burbs, and how the state did nothing to help with that. White flight was encouraged.

ETA: Maybe acknowledge that the chief reason Jackson can't provide decent water and sewer, your own complaint above, is that the state chose to structure grants/loans in a way that screwed Jackson.
 

johnson86-1

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Getting more reasonable....

Need to work in an understanding that aging inner city cores are more expensive to maintain (both physically and socially) than the burbs, and how the state did nothing to help with that.
How is that the State's responsibility rather than the City's? To the extent cities are more expensive, they also have higher density, which should offset that. I will say that cities and counties in general do not do a good job of matching up taxes to increased lifecycle maintenance costs. Greenfield development of new subdivisions and commercial projects are essentially incentivized when they should be penalized compared to infill, as they are requiring new roads and water and sewer infrastructure to maintain rather than utilizing infrastructure that is mostly already there.


White flight was encouraged.

The biggest thing the state failed to do to help Jackson was allow school choice with state money, at least for people in ****** school districts. Madison was originally basically for people that couldn't afford Jackson private schools before it became the place where people with some money went.

ETA: Maybe acknowledge that the chief reason Jackson can't provide decent water and sewer, your own complaint above, is that the state chose to structure grants/loans in a way that screwed Jackson.
The state chose to structure grants/loans in a way that they thought helped the communities least able to afford it. Less densely populated areas have more trouble funding water and sewer because they have more linear foot of infrastructure per meter and they also don't have economies of scale. They were not wrong that larger communities are more able to afford water and sewer infrastructure and should not need the forgiveness. I think it was a bad policy decision because it's generally a bad policy decision to hide the social costs of things, and maybe having to pay full freight for water and sewer would have encouraged smarter development, with nicer towns even in rural areas, but there wasn't any animosity towards Jackson driving that. It was just politics of a rural state. And Jackson wasn't really screwed by that either. It would have been nice for Jackson to have more state and federal money, but they still had more capacity than most small towns to pay for water and sewer, they just chose not too.

I would agree that it was a poor policy decision, but politically, we were a very rural state and there were lots of communities without a lot of density, which makes it hard to fund water and sewer because you have more linear foot of infrastructure to maintain per meter.
 

Boom Boom

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How is that the State's responsibility rather than the City's? To the extent cities are more expensive, they also have higher density, which should offset that. I will say that cities and counties in general do not do a good job of matching up taxes to increased lifecycle maintenance costs. Greenfield development of new subdivisions and commercial projects are essentially incentivized when they should be penalized compared to infill, as they are requiring new roads and water and sewer infrastructure to maintain rather than utilizing infrastructure that is mostly already there.
Old cities are more expensive to maintain than new burbs, far beyond what increased density can account for (and does that even help? Wouldn't that lower property tax revenue?) The state made the choice to funnel infrastructure money to small towns and not Jackson, right as Jacksons tax base was shrinking. Jackson's infrastructure got worse. This ain't rocket science. Are you arguing that Jackson should have raised taxes? (I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but you seem fundamentally opposed to that solution yet are castigating Jackson for not doing it.)
The biggest thing the state failed to do to help Jackson was allow school choice with state money, at least for people in ****** school districts. Madison was originally basically for people that couldn't afford Jackson private schools before it became the place where people with some money went.
Come On Biden GIF by GIPHY News


The state chose to structure grants/loans in a way that they thought helped the communities least able to afford it.
Back to the view of the state legislators as paragons of virtue. Besides, this ignores that they watched Jackson's infrastructure deteriote and didn't change a thing.
Less densely populated areas have more trouble funding water and sewer because they have more linear foot of infrastructure per meter and they also don't have economies of scale. They were not wrong that larger communities are more able to afford water and sewer infrastructure and should not need the forgiveness.
So, you're view is that Jackson, suffering from massive white flight and a disastrous drop on revenue, was more able to afford infrastructure maintenance than the areas flush with cash from the white flighters? Jeez, I know yall are desperate to deny racism and will make any lie to do so, but this is pathetic even for yall.
I think it was a bad policy decision because it's generally a bad policy decision to hide the social costs of things, and maybe having to pay full freight for water and sewer would have encouraged smarter development, with nicer towns even in rural areas, but there wasn't any animosity towards Jackson driving that. It was just politics of a rural state.
Sure sure, racism was never a thing in MS. Sure, sure.
And Jackson wasn't really screwed by that either.
Lol.
It would have been nice for Jackson to have more state and federal money, but they still had more capacity than most small towns to pay for water and sewer, they just chose not too.
Sure, sure. White flight was a hoax. Sure sure.
I would agree that it was a poor policy decision, but politically, we were a very rural state and there were lots of communities without a lot of density, which makes it hard to fund water and sewer because you have more linear foot of infrastructure to maintain per meter.
I mean, if you could at least acknowledge that a rural dominated state legislature did not act in the interests of the city, that would be something.
 
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I fail to grasp how having "better policies" regarding grant funding would have helped when the leadership of Jackson fails to even properly apply for those grants, if they apply for them at all, most years. "We can't get as much money as we'd like" isn't a viable excuse for refusing to even fill out the paperwork to get the money they actually can get.

I live here. Jackson leadership in the last couple decades seems to think getting in front of a camera and demanding the State send a blank check is all that they need to do to get State assistance.
 
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She Mate Me

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Got it, the MS state legislature of decades past were paragons of virtue that never did Jackson wrong in any way. Sure sure. MS never had a single racist legislator, ever. Sure Sure, how could I have ever doubted yall.

You're just becoming a silly caricature.
 
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