PSU - Michigan Dual Thread

AK1967

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Would love to see Max Dean get bigger and stronger during the next 60 days too. That would help him finish better against the bigger 197 guys. He already keeps pretty good position. Hope we get to hear an interview from him next week.
Attn Greg: Can you ask how often he’s lifting ? If we get to hear from him.
 

IronLion

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Wow, was that fun! What an effort! Amazing how Cael gets his teams up for the big matches. Say what you will about Beau but in our two biggest matches this year, he’s been the guy that stepped up (and I know this guy got hurt, but Beau went right out and threw him to his back). Thought Berge looked great, Carter makes me a little nervous about repeating and Kerk’s got it going. So good!
 
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CropDuster507

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Missed the ****ing dual. Just getting to my chili.

4.5/5 stars, will improve… both the chili and the lineup lol.
 

laKavosiey-st lion

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Kerk is right there with Gable when healthy like this year. Like to see him keep pounding the weights and good calorie diet like Cassar and get up to 245 to 250. Kerk can beat him once he gets stronger. He’s just as athletic. MO
Dude I’m all in but gables way too good. Meeting him in the finals with a semi win over Paris, I m good.
 

watoos

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These posts about would love to see X, Y, and Z get bigger and stronger remind me of an old Mad Magazine cartoon. Guy takes his girl to the beach and a muscle bound guy kicks sand in his face. Guy goes to Charles Atlas school and beefs up, takes his girl to the beach and a humongous guy still kicks sand in his face.
Moral of the story; Kerk is just fine where he's at, 45 extra pounds from the #2 wrestler in the country never came into play from what I was watching.
 

JBott

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What a night for the Lions in Ann Arbor.
I’d say! Who expected that! We all knew PSU would need to wrestle well and win some of the “toss up” matches to win, but who expected them to win
ALL of them! Get by MSU tomorrow healthy and then bring on the Iowa Hawkeyes!
 
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JBott

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Kerk is right there with Gable when healthy like this year. Like to see him keep pounding the weights and good calorie diet like Cassar and get up to 245 to 250. Kerk can beat him once he gets stronger. He’s just as athletic. MO
I agree! I would love to see him at 250-255. His frame can easily handle it!
 

LookSharp

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Oct 25, 2021
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About last night...

Kudos to the BTN for showing a double header. They should make Friday Night Wrestling doubleheaders a routine.

I feel much better about Iowa after watching the doubleheader. I know the transitory theory doesn't always apply but Michigan beat OSU 29-8. IMHO perhaps with the exception of 157, bonus points will be scarce. At the risk of stating the obvious the keys to winning are: 1) be no worse than 2-3 at intermission, 2) limit bonus points at 157 and 3) take the crowd out of influencing stalling calls. Do that and we're in good shape. Otherwise, it could come down to heavyweight. Watoos' Mad Magazine analogy notwithstanding Tony Cassioppi is not the same wrestler as last year. Obviously, the marquis matchups are RBY vs. DeSanto and Starocci vs. Kemerer (I believe Lee handles Eierman, comfortably).

Not my intention to throw shade on a wrestler but last night reminded me why I dislike Marinelli's style. Those head slaps are meant to frustrate an opponent. It didn't work last night against #7 Kharchla.
 

watoos

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I’d say! Who expected that! We all knew PSU would need to wrestle well and win some of the “toss up” matches to win, but who expected them to win
ALL of them! Get by MSU tomorrow healthy and then bring on the Iowa Hawkeyes!
What a night. All our higher seeds won and 3 of our lower seeds won. maybe I shouldn't worry about seeds so much, maybe it doesn't matter to our guys? We are the bad seed.
 

watoos

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About last night...

Kudos to the BTN for showing a double header. They should make Friday Night Wrestling doubleheaders a routine.

I feel much better about Iowa after watching the doubleheader. I know the transitory theory doesn't always apply but Michigan beat OSU 29-8. IMHO perhaps with the exception of 157, bonus points will be scarce. At the risk of stating the obvious IMHO the keys to winning are: 1) be no worse than 2-3 at intermission, 2) limit bonus points at 157 and 3) take the crowd out of influencing stalling calls. Do that and we're in good shape. Otherwise, it could come down to heavyweight. Watoos' Mad Magazine analogy notwithstanding Tony Cassioppi is not the same wrestler as last year. Obviously, the marquis matchups are RBY vs. DeSanto and Starocci vs. Kemerer (I believe Lee handles Eierman, conformably).

Not my intention to throw shade on a wrestler but last night reminded me why I dislike Marinelli's style. Those head slaps are meant to frustrate an opponent. It didn't work last night against #7 Kharchla.
Does Marinelli have another year? Maybe going at 165 has taken a toll on him, maybe he can eat at 174 or does Kem Dog have another year of eligibility?:devilish:
 
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Oct 15, 2021
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Man, guys, all for optimism, but there is no one on earth that's on Steveson's level right now. I think Kirk could be competitive, sure, but it's darn hard to envision a victory. Guess that's why they wrestle them, though!
Zare might be able to. Would love to see Gable vs. Zare and hope it happens at the USA Iran dual. Might actually be worth a flo membership.
 

watoos

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Question for the ranking experts. Does this win move Kerk up to #2 or will Zeke's duck hunting pay off for him? I know premature question with B1Gs still coming up but no one wants the #4 seed at nationals.
I guess I'm saying, isn't the key being ranked ahead of Cohlton Schultz? Schultz toughest guys left to wrestle are Jordan Wood and Gary Traub. Meanwhile Kerk goes through the B1G 10 meat grinder which has 4 guys who can beat Schultz.
 
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IronLion

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The key, I think, after last night is just make the Big 10 finals. Don’t think Kerk can be worse than the 3 seed at Big 10’s (beat Cass next week and he’s the 2 seed at Big’s) after last night so win that semifinal match at Big’s to get in the finals and I think you’re no worse than a 3 seed at Nationals, with Parris and Cass the 4 and 5 seeds.
 
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watoos

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The key, I think, after last night is just make the Big 10 finals. Don’t think Kerk can be worse than the 3 seed at Big 10’s (beat Cass next week and he’s the 2 seed at Big’s) after last night so win that semifinal match at Big’s to get in the finals and I think you’re no worse than a 3 seed at Nationals, with Parris and Cass the 4 and 5 seeds.
It kinda pizzes me off though. I mean I understand the Covid protocalls, Nick couldn't wrestle Sea Bass but Az St only wrestled a 4 match dual with Michigan, I want to know which wrestler tested + for Covid, Schultz or Parris that they couldn't wrestle each other.
Oh yeah I forgot, I guess that Schultz was injured at the Va. Duals but he also didn't wrestle Traxler from Va. Tech who is ranked. Shouldn't someone's ranking also depend upon beating at least one quality opponent, who has Schultz beaten this year?
 
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IronLion

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It kinda pizzes me off though. I mean I understand the Covid protocalls, Nick couldn't wrestle Sea Bass but Az St only wrestled a 4 match dual with Michigan, I want to know which wrestler tested + for Covid, Schultz or Parris that they couldn't wrestle each other.
Agreed, but at the end of the day, win the Big semi against either Parris or Cass and he avoids Steveson at Nationals until the finals.
 

IronLion

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Agreed, but at the end of the day, win the Big semi against either Parris or Cass and he avoids Steveson at Nationals until the finals.
And given that Michigan and Iowa are likely our two biggest challengers for the team title, maybe better to have Schultz in at 3 and Cass/Parris meeting in QF with winner getting Steveson in SF. Now all this again requires Kerk to make BIG finals.
 

watoos

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And given that Michigan and Iowa are likely our two biggest challengers for the team title, maybe better to have Schultz in at 3 and Cass/Parris meeting in QF with winner getting Steveson in SF. Now all this again requires Kerk to make BIG finals.
A big key also is for Kerk to beat Cass next Friday, just saying, it still pizzes me off. Oh I forgot, Cass lost his first match of the year, I feel a little better now.
 
Dec 23, 2021
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Does anyone know why the refs weren’t counting when Dean went down to the single leg when he was riding?
Rule 5, Section 7 Art. 12. Stalling by Dropping Down to a Lower Leg.
When the offensive wrestler is positioned with one or both hands below the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. The referee shall stop the count when the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, releases the hold or when both wrestlers rise to the standing position. If the referee reaches the fifth count before the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks or releases the hold, then the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.​

This applies when down on the mat.
 
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Dec 23, 2021
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Would love to see Max Dean get bigger and stronger during the next 60 days too. That would help him finish better against the bigger 197 guys. He already keeps pretty good position. Hope we get to hear an interview from him next week.
Attn Greg: Can you ask how often he’s lifting ? If we get to hear from him.
"Bigger" could result if more of a cut. Brucki is huge but the tank was nearly empty when they went to SV. You could tell from body language comparison that Max's tank still had plenty in it. This is the trade off.
 

SonnyAbeFan

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Rule 5, Section 7 Art. 12. Stalling by Dropping Down to a Lower Leg.
When the offensive wrestler is positioned with one or both hands below the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. The referee shall stop the count when the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, releases the hold or when both wrestlers rise to the standing position. If the referee reaches the fifth count before the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks or releases the hold, then the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.​

This applies when down on the mat.
Truth, you are the rules guy. Thank you! Does it specifically say when down on the mat? Reason I ask it that I emailed the NCAA the other day about the OT issue you clarified me, and the head guy responded that the rule can use clarification, and he offered up potentially additional verbiage to the rule. I followed up with him for clarification, and I will share the feedback with you once I receive it. If it doesn’t specifically say on the mat, it should, and the appear to appreciate the feedback to help eliminate ambiguity and confusion.
 

Bosco2

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Would love to see Max Dean get bigger and stronger during the next 60 days too. That would help him finish better against the bigger 197 guys. He already keeps pretty good position. Hope we get to hear an interview from him next week.
Attn Greg: Can you ask how often he’s lifting ? If we get to hear from him.
He should try to get taller, if anything.:)
 
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SonnyAbeFan

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Gable is outstanding technician, strong, and has a gas tank. Not saying Kerk can't beat him, just put the probability at maybe 20%.
Agree. The goal, in my mind, is to be able to compete with Gable. If Kerk can compete with him, then he’s got a shot. If he can stay on this course and stay healthy, then hopefully he can compete with King Gable. And time and time again, Cael and staff create a winning game plan - that’s the wildcard
 

SonnyAbeFan

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Is anyone surprised Kerk chose down in the 3rd period? He was already managing the match a bit like a freestyle match where he wasn’t really going to try to ride Parris (at least early), and just try to win it on his feet.

My best guess is that Cael wants him to get practice getting out from bottom in a big match. Certainly did not look easy, but Kerk got it done (which again shows the difference in his strength vs. last year). My other best guess is that if it’s NCAAs, he chooses neutral.
 

watoos

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Agreed, but at the end of the day, win the Big semi against either Parris or Cass and he avoids Steveson at Nationals until the finals.
On the other hand, if Kerk loses to Parris in the semis, his only loss of the year, and finishes 3rd, he is going to get seeded 4th at nationals behind someone who never had a quality win this year.
 

IronLion

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Is anyone surprised Kerk chose down in the 3rd period? He was already managing the match a bit like a freestyle match where he wasn’t really going to try to ride Parris (at least early), and just try to win it on his feet.

My best guess is that Cael wants him to get practice getting out from bottom in a big match. Certainly did not look easy, but Kerk got it done (which again shows the difference in his strength vs. last year). My other best guess is that if it’s NCAAs, he chooses neutral.
I agree that Cael probably wanted him to work on it now versus for the first time this year in a much more high pressure situation.
 
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SRATH

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Is anyone surprised Kerk chose down in the 3rd period? He was already managing the match a bit like a freestyle match where he wasn’t really going to try to ride Parris (at least early), and just try to win it on his feet.

My best guess is that Cael wants him to get practice getting out from bottom in a big match. Certainly did not look easy, but Kerk got it done (which again shows the difference in his strength vs. last year). My other best guess is that if it’s NCAAs, he chooses neutral.
I am sure Greg gets plenty of work with Seth......... an important guy in the room who has to play a role in this development.
 

WV lion

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It kinda pizzes me off though. I mean I understand the Covid protocalls, Nick couldn't wrestle Sea Bass but Az St only wrestled a 4 match dual with Michigan, I want to know which wrestler tested + for Covid, Schultz or Parris that they couldn't wrestle each other.
Oh yeah I forgot, I guess that Schultz was injured at the Va. Duals but he also didn't wrestle Traxler from Va. Tech who is ranked. Shouldn't someone's ranking also depend upon beating at least one quality opponent, who has Schultz beaten this year?
That is the problem with the rankings, no ranking service penalizes wrestlers for not wrestling, so why would the seeding committee?
 
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Tom McAndrew

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Oct 27, 2021
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Truth, you are the rules guy. Thank you! Does it specifically say when down on the mat? Reason I ask it that I emailed the NCAA the other day about the OT issue you clarified me, and the head guy responded that the rule can use clarification, and he offered up potentially additional verbiage to the rule. I followed up with him for clarification, and I will share the feedback with you once I receive it. If it doesn’t specifically say on the mat, it should, and the appear to appreciate the feedback to help eliminate ambiguity and confusion.

Several things:

1. @truth-and-reason is a former ref, and I'm a current ref. It's not hard for either of us to clarify the rules for you
2. that said, you keep asking fan-type questions. Refs look at the big picture, especially with the rules. You can't take out clauses or sentences of rules, and presume that they apply across the board.
3. @truth-and-reason quoted you Rule 5 (which handles all infractions), Section 7 (which addresses stalling infractions), Art. 12, which is specifically titled "Stalling by Dropping Down to a Lower Leg." The rule does not need to "specifically say when down on the mat." In fact, the beauty of the rule is it doesn't limit its application to only when on the mat. It specifies what the offensive wrestler has to do in that situation, and when the ref should start and stop a five-second count. That's all that is needed by refs to know how and when to apply the rule
4. I'll take your word for it concerning the communications with the NCAA, but I wouldn't get too excited about that. Every year, after the rule books are released for college and for high school/youth, errors are found with what is written, and issues arise that cause questions for refs about how to apply the rules in this or that situation. In both cases, additional information/clarification are disseminated from the governing body down to the refs. So it's not unusual for rules needing to be tweaked, but that doesn't mean that the refs have not been instructed about how to handle each of the issues that has arisen with the rules, or how to treat situations where there are mistakes in the rules
5. in the context of #4, I really wouldn't waste time providing fan feedback on the rules. Before the season starts, the governing bodies already have a working list of things to correct in next year's rules book. Then once the season's start, as issues arise, the governing bodies are getting feedback from refs, state organizations, leagues, etc.

I appreciate your interest in the rules.
 
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SonnyAbeFan

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Several things:

1. @truth-and-reason is a former ref, and I'm a current ref. It's not hard for either of us to clarify the rules for you
2. that said, you keep asking fan-type questions. Refs look at the big picture, especially with the rules. You can't take out clauses or sentences of rules, and presume that they apply across the board.
3. @truth-and-reason quoted you Rule 5 (which handles all infractions), Section 7 (which addresses stalling infractions), Art. 12, which is specifically titled "Stalling by Dropping Down to a Lower Leg." The rule does not need to "specifically say when down on the mat." In fact, the beauty of the rule is it doesn't limit its application to only when on the mat. It specifies what the offensive wrestler has to do in that situation, and when the ref should start and stop a five-second count. That's all that is needed by refs to know how and when to apply the rule
4. I'll take your word for it concerning the communications with the NCAA, but I wouldn't get too excited about that. Every year, after the rule books are released for college and for high school/youth, errors are found with what is written, and issues arise that cause questions for refs about how to apply the rules in this or that situation. In both cases, additional information/clarification are disseminated from the governing body down to the refs. So it's not unusual for rules needing to be tweaked, but that doesn't mean that the refs have not been instructed about how to handle each of the issues that has arisen with the rules, or how to treat situations where there are mistakes in the rules
5. in the context of #4, I really wouldn't waste time providing fan feedback on the rules. Before the season starts, the governing bodies already have a working list of things to correct in next year's rules book. Then once the season's start, as issues arise, the governing bodies are getting feedback from refs, state organizations, leagues, etc.

I appreciate your interest in the rules.
Tom, my sincere apology for my curiosity and for my interest in the rules. Truth's explanations have been very helpful to someone who is less informed like me. I will refrain from asking any questions about the rules on this discussion board as well as directing questions to the NCAA, as directed by the NCAA.

Please note that I am not excited to have clarified a rule, nor do I anticipate that my name will be forever linked to any alteration to the wording of the rule. But yes, I was pleased to have received a response from Chuck Barbee, NCAA Wrestling Secretary-Rules Editor, and I was also pleased that he acknowledged that "the rule could benefit from a few additional words to make it crystal clear." But I will refrain from sharing his recommended alteration because, as you say, it's a waste of my time and yours.

From now on, I will not ask any fan-type questions about the rules, particularly on a fan discussion board. Thank you, Tom, and congratulations on your mastery of the rules of wrestling. Should I also refrain from making fan-type comments about wrestling, since I readily admit that I am not an expert on the sport, only a dedicated fan, particularly to Penn State?

I appreciate your feedback and setting me straight.
 

SonnyAbeFan

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Rule 5, Section 7 Art. 12. Stalling by Dropping Down to a Lower Leg.
When the offensive wrestler is positioned with one or both hands below the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. The referee shall stop the count when the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, releases the hold or when both wrestlers rise to the standing position. If the referee reaches the fifth count before the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks or releases the hold, then the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.​

This applies when down on the mat.
Truth, my apologies, I now see where it states "or when both wrestlers rise to the standing position." I missed that and was unaware of that. The beauty of the rule is that it specifically and unambiguously states how and when referees should apply the rule. I'm sure it's helpful to wrestlers and fans to know that, in this case, we don't need to worry about whether or not the referee was trained to handle issues with the rule even if there are mistakes in it.
 

Tom McAndrew

BWI Staff
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Oct 27, 2021
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Tom, my sincere apology for my curiosity and for my interest in the rules. Truth's explanations have been very helpful to someone who is less informed like me. I will refrain from asking any questions about the rules on this discussion board as well as directing questions to the NCAA, as directed by the NCAA.

lol, talk about over reaction.

I applauded your interest in the rules, and previously provided guidance on a rules question you had. There is hardly a dual or a tournament I ref where either before, during, or after the event I'm not asked rules questions. Refs are used to it, and are usually happy to provide clarification to fans, to coaches, and to wrestlers.

My "slow down" advice to you had to do with communicating with the NCAA, or, by extension, with your state sports association. As I mentioned, there there is a very formal process that the governing bodies go through for editing the rules to correct mistakes in the current version, as well as a very formal process they go through to provide clarification to the refs. In addition, at the end of each season, the refs are asked to participate in a survey regarding proposed rules changes. There are also formal policies in place for refs to get clarification during the season on any rules that cause them confusion, or for which they think they've encountered a situation that is not addressed by the rules.

Sports wouldn't exist without participants, coaches, fans, and referees. And if one is really a big fan of a sport, it's not uncommon to want to know about the rules. I've been happy to answer rules questions over the years on BWI's wrestling board, and it appears that @truth-and-reason is also willing to do so. In that case, I think that you, as well as many other PSU fans, have a great resource.

From now on, I will not ask any fan-type questions about the rules, particularly on a fan discussion board. Thank you, Tom, and congratulations on your mastery of the rules of wrestling. Should I also refrain from making fan-type comments about wrestling, since I readily admit that I am not an expert on the sport, only a dedicated fan, particularly to Penn State?

Now you're going off the deep end. Fans post questions all the time on this board. And while I'm very, very good at the rules, I've never claimed that I've mastered them.
 
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SonnyAbeFan

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lol, talk about over reaction.

I applauded your interest in the rules, and previously provided guidance on a rules question you had. There is hardly a dual or a tournament I ref where either before, during, or after the event I'm not asked rules questions. Refs are used to it, and are usually happy to provide clarification to fans, to coaches, and to wrestlers.

My "slow down" advice to you had to do with communicating with the NCAA, or, by extension, with your state sports association. As I mentioned, there there is a very formal process that the governing bodies go through for editing the rules to correct mistakes in the current version, as well as a very formal process they go through to provide clarification to the refs. In addition, at the end of each season, the refs are asked to participate in a survey regarding proposed rules changes. There are also formal policies in place for refs to get clarification during the season on any rules that cause them confusion, or for which they think they've encountered a situation that is not addressed by the rules.

Sports wouldn't exist without participants, coaches, fans, and referees. And if one is really a big fan of a sport, it's not uncommon to want to know about the rules. I've been happy to answer rules questions over the years on BWI's wrestling board, and it appears that @truth-and-reason is also willing to do so. In that case, I think that you, as well as many other PSU fans, have a great resource.



Now you're going off the deep end. Fans post questions all the time on this board. And while I'm very, very good at the rules, I've never claimed that I've mastered them.
By no means did I aim to overreact. I thought I reacted fairly to "you keep asking fan-type questions" about trying to understand the rules, and "I really wouldn't waste time providing fan feedback on the rules" when I posed a question to the NCAA Wrestling Committee as directed by the rule book ("Those seeking interpretations of the rules...may contact..."). Furthermore, "I wouldn't get too excited about that" seemed to be an odd and unfair statement, as I was simply pleased to actually receive a reply and to get affirmation from someone on the committee that, yes, additional clarification may be beneficial. Am I dancing the jig? No. Am I pleased? Yes, similar to the rare occasions when my wife agrees with my parenting advice. I think you may have overreacted to my sincere interest in understanding the tricky and sometimes confusing nuances of this sport.
 
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