The S&P just had it's best May since 2003

Boom Boom

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Yes, but if people can’t/won’t buy the $300k house because they only have/will spend $175k, developers would rather make $50k than $0k. I copied your numbers, so if anyone doesn’t like those numbers, argue with golfer.
But when that builder can pick his jobs....why pick the smaller build for less profit when someone else will buy whatever bigger house he builds for more profit? I mean, as long as the banks are throwing money at schlubs, there will always be a buyer right?
 
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Boom Boom

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The cost to build homes is never coming down unless we automate it. Manual labor is a commodity that is scarce and getting scarcer. Raw materials are scarce and getting scarcer. Land (in locations that people want to live on) is scarce and getting scarcer. The final straw is the requirements a builder must meet to build a home are going the other way... As municipalities adopt newer and more stringent IRC codes, additional costs are added to the construction process... An estimated 35% increase to build a home since 2007 is just from new building codes.
I don't necessarily disagree, but the problem with this theory is there's not starter homes out in the rural areas either. Down here on the MS coast there's PLENTY of land out of the municipalities. Just drive north 3 minutes. But no one is building on it. All the homes are being built by big builders clustered around new developments, in and out of municipalities. Overpriced crap builds that all look exactly the same.
 

Boom Boom

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I puke a little when people say "disruptive technology" but that's what single family home construction needs. I'm big on 3D because it has the potential to eliminate 50+% of the time and labor required to build a home. Factory built (not necessarily trailers, but more assemble on site) homes have the potential to cut time and labor to a lesser degree. Multigenerational living is another option. But ultimately, something is going to have to change...
Paraphrased old saying: "it happens slower than you think possible....then it happens all at once." I learned it in the housing crisis, watching it unfold for years, being called an idiot for predicting it, and wondering why it was taking so long. Covid unfolded the same way. Am currently rereading World War Z, and it has a similar premise (deeply ironic reading it post Covid), of how everyone learned of the zombie crisis but just ignored the threat and went about their lives....until it could no longer be ignored and everyone panicked all at once. Human nature I guess.

I'm thinking 3d homes will be similar.
 
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TrueMaroonGrind

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May be a while. Saw yesterday someone is coming out the a 97% mortgage with a 3% 2nd mortgage product they’re marketing to people with up to 80% of the median income. That doesn’t seem like a bad idea at all. **
That’s sounds very similar to a product that was used before the housing crash. Those 2nd mortgages were “forgiven” after the crash but still existed. Now those loans have been sold around to companies that are collecting these mortgages and are taking homes. It’s nuts and I would avoid that type of product.
 
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Maroon Eagle

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Only one man to thank...
Joe Biden Shock GIF by GIPHY News

Nah but…

I literally included the 5 year, as I find it noteworthy. The US economy truly is amazing & resilient. Are you upset or something?
During Biden’s Presidency, my income has gone up 40 percent and I have no credit card debt. The only other president where I’ve done well relatively speaking financially during the courses of their terms was Clinton and I loathed him.

(Here’s where you ask “Was either president personally responsible?” and where I answer “Of course not. I was in a position where I could be in a financially better situation than what I had been. Reagan famously asked ‘Are you better off now than you were four years ago?’ and my response as far as 2024 is concerned is ‘Absolutely.’”)

With all that said, Biden is a horrible candidate who would easily lose to any notable Republican not named Trump.

Ironically, I’ve disliked Trump for years in large part because of his longtime friendship with Bill Clinton.


Last year there was roughly a million fewer college students enrolled compared to pre-pandemic. Definitely a trend towards certificates and vocational work here.
The Demand Cliff isn’t talked about often enough. The Enrollment Cliff has been mentioned a lot and colleges and universities have pivoted away from low demand majors which a part of me is disappointed about if only because I considered quite a few of those classes to be essential to my success.

I have more money in my account than ever before, but I still have a difficult time buying groceries for my family.

Inflation sucks. 🙁
 

OG Goat Holder

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Paraphrased old saying: "it happens slower than you think possible....then it happens all at once." I learned it in the housing crisis, watching it unfold for years, being called an idiot for predicting it, and wondering why it was taking so long. Covid unfolded the same way. Am currently rereading World War Z, and it has a similar premise (deeply ironic reading it post Covid), of how everyone learned of the zombie crisis but just ignored the threat and went about their lives....until it could no longer be ignored and everyone panicked all at once. Human nature I guess.

I'm thinking 3d homes will be similar.
So what’s the answer to protect against whatever comes next? That’s all I really care about going forward. All I want is for my investments, and my home value, to not go down over the long haul. Doubt they will, as they never really have. This doomsday stuff always seems to be temporary.

I do think if people can tough out another 10-15 years, housing will improve significantly as the boomers die (not trying to be morbid boomers, just facts). A lot of housing comes back on the market, but it will need to be updated. But I would imagine demand will be lower. You really don’t want to buy into smaller 3D stamped houses and stuff that won’t appreciate, before that time.
 

Boom Boom

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So what’s the answer to protect against whatever comes next? That’s all I really care about going forward. All I want is for my investments, and my home value, to not go down over the long haul. Doubt they will, as they never really have. This doomsday stuff always seems to be temporary.

I do think if people can tough out another 10-15 years, housing will improve significantly as the boomers die (not trying to be morbid boomers, just facts). A lot of housing comes back on the market, but it will need to be updated. But I would imagine demand will be lower. You really don’t want to buy into smaller 3D stamped houses and stuff that won’t appreciate, before that time.
That is the question lol. The rule of crowds: following the crowd is a poor way to make profit, but a good way to be protected in what you have.
 

57stratdawg

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NVIDIA announced their new generation of chips in Taipei today. You might be thinking “huh, I thought I just saw them announce new chips a few weeks ago.”

Welcome to ‘product design’ in the age of AI.

 

johnson86-1

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Good point, but I don’t see houses being built like my first one. 3/2, 1100sqf, cheap tile or cheap carpet floors, cheap finishes, solid roof. Maybe the simple/cheaper ones are being built, but all the “starter homes” I see are pretty fancy nowadays.
The starter homes in our are start with a dime sized lot and a garage that can't fit 2 cars in it, so you start with a clear cut subdivision where all you can see is cars in driveways in front of the houses. They're cheaply built, thrown together tract homes with laminate flooring, cheap cabinets, and cheap fixtures, but they put a little money into granite countertops, crown molding, and stainless steel appliances and they sell them for $300k+. And it's not a high income area. $300k was a nice house when I started working. Hell, I bought a nice house for under $300k less than a decade ago. Now it's a new tract home that's going to be a ****** neighborhood in 15 to 20 years with a bunch of houses that have major problems. Feel bad for younger people today.
 

johnson86-1

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Well after we Boomers made our sacrifices and financially got our feet on the ground we didn't want our kids to have to make the sacrifices we made so we (generalizing here also) spoiled the schit out of them. Of the mountain of mistakes we (boomers) made this may have been our biggest.
Pretty sure it was promising yourselves that younger, generally poorer workers would pay you a **** ton of money to you when you are older. I mean, that wasn't really a mistake for the boomers from the point of their self interest. It's the greatest en mass screwing the world has ever seen (at least excluding the occasional genocide and raping and pillaging, but even then none of those compare in scale).

But if you're talking about ways boomers screwed their kids and younger generations in general, that has to be at the top, right? And it was done knowingly, unlike say the housing shortage, which was sort of emerged from a lot of slightly ****** and selfish behavior interacting with facially benign policies.
 
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johnson86-1

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White House gets too much credit when economy does well and too much blame when it doesn't.
Historically that's true, but since we've sort of abandoned separation of powers with the administrative state, the white house can now unleash growth just by reducing ******** impediments. Conversely, they can strangle it by choking it off with new administrative burden.
 

johnson86-1

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What you mean that Presidents don’t have buttons on the Resolute Desk saying More Inflation, Less Inflation, etc. **
Bad fiscal policy makes good monetary policy harder. Trump and Congress were dumb during COVID. They did a bunch of unnecessary and counterproductive things and then handed out a **** ton of money. That was bad, but at least somewhat defensible from a motive point of view in the sense that some people were legitimately hysterical about COVID, even if it still devolved into more or less a money grab by connected parties. Then Biden came in and Biden and Congress decided not enough of their favored constituents cashed in on the COVID money grab (even though they really did a ton; it wasn't tilted enough), so they went and spent a **** ton of money. Basically if you didn't get PPP or ERC, your wealth was siphoned off to give it to those that did.

Some inflation was probably baked in with the original COVID stupidity, although maybe a fed that was awake at the wheel could have contained it. Throwing fuel on the fire after the COVID hysteria was asking a lot from the FED, as they basically would have had to induce a recession to stop it early.
 
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Boom Boom

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The starter homes in our are start with a dime sized lot and a garage that can't fit 2 cars in it, so you start with a clear cut subdivision where all you can see is cars in driveways in front of the houses. They're cheaply built, thrown together tract homes with laminate flooring, cheap cabinets, and cheap fixtures, but they put a little money into granite countertops, crown molding, and stainless steel appliances and they sell them for $300k+. And it's not a high income area. $300k was a nice house when I started working. Hell, I bought a nice house for under $300k less than a decade ago. Now it's a new tract home that's going to be a ****** neighborhood in 15 to 20 years with a bunch of houses that have major problems. Feel bad for younger people today.
I'm curious, are countertops and SS appliances something big builders can get great volume discounts on, while flooring and cabinets aren't, or is there some other reason why they go for those upgrades? Customer (dumb) preference maybe? Labor costs?
 

Boom Boom

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Pretty sure it was promising yourselves that younger, generally poorer workers would pay you a **** ton of money to you when you are older. I mean, that wasn't really a mistake for the boomers from the point of their self interest. It's the greatest en mass screwing the world has ever seen (at least excluding the occasional genocide and raping and pillaging, but even then none of those compare in scale).

But if you're talking about ways boomers screwed their kids and younger generations in general, that has to be at the top, right? And it was done knowingly, unlike say the housing shortage, which was sort of emerged from a lot of slightly ****** and selfish behavior interacting with facially benign policies.
Except that most Boomers are convinced that they paid for their SS and Medicare. That they like to lecture the yutes but miss that context is just so on point.
 
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Boom Boom

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Historically that's true, but since we've sort of abandoned separation of powers with the administrative state, the white house can now unleash growth just by reducing ******** impediments. Conversely, they can strangle it by choking it off with new administrative burden.
Seems more like a GOP talking point than reality. Congress has complete control of the Administrative state. They're just to corrupt and incompetent to do their job.
 

thatsbaseball

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Except that most Boomers are convinced that they paid for their SS and Medicare. That they like to lecture the yutes but miss that context is just so on point.
Not to be nit picky but shouldn't that read " boomers were naïve enough to let the government convince them they paid for their SS and Medicare" ?
 

Boom Boom

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Bad fiscal policy makes good monetary policy harder. Trump and Congress were dumb during COVID. They did a bunch of unnecessary and counterproductive things and then handed out a **** ton of money.
I think they did pretty well considering what they had to work with. They applied the lessons of the Great Recession pretty well (going big is smarter than going small, too much has relatively minor costs, too small has major costs and basically you shouldn't have bothered and accomplished nothing, don't expect to be able to come back to Congress for more, etc). Some (cough cough J85) resisted those lessons in real time, continue to resist them today, and likely will to their graves.
That was bad, but at least somewhat defensible from a motive point of view in the sense that some people were legitimately hysterical about COVID, even if it still devolved into more or less a money grab by connected parties.
I think businesses shuttering and almost certainly never reopening wasnt a "hysterical" fear.
Then Biden came in and Biden and Congress decided not enough of their favored constituents cashed in on the COVID money grab (even though they really did a ton; it wasn't tilted enough), so they went and spent a **** ton of money.
[eyeroll]
Basically if you didn't get PPP or ERC, your wealth was siphoned off to give it to those that did.
just like if you dont get favored tax treatment, youre wealth is being siphoned off to give it to those that do? It was just more of the same. Not that i favor either, just noting the inconsistency(in general, not necessarily you)
Some inflation was probably baked in with the original COVID stupidity, although maybe a fed that was awake at the wheel could have contained it. Throwing fuel on the fire after the COVID hysteria was asking a lot from the FED, as they basically would have had to induce a recession to stop it early.
Newsflash, here in 2024 team Transistory has been vindicated. Most inflation we've seen is clearly traced to supply shocks. A recession wouldn't have stopped it.

As I said recently in another thread, people aren't accounting for how logistical challenges are their own added cost. Any business that has to buy and store additional goods to account for supply disruptions is killing their margins. I know the people who've come to think tax rates and the federal deficit account for all business profits are having trouble with this, but it turns out basic business costs ends up as the dominant factor.
 

Boom Boom

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Not to be nit picky but shouldn't that read " boomers were naïve enough to let the government convince them they paid for their SS and Medicare" ?
i dont think so. Who was promoting such a view? Was the truth hidden, or just ignored? If theres aliens out there, blame the govt for hiding it. This one is on the people.
 

thatsbaseball

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i dont think so. Who was promoting such a view? Was the truth hidden, or just ignored? If theres aliens out there, blame the govt for hiding it. This one is on the people.
Who was promoting such a view ????? We were promise by our own government that if we invested in these programs we would receive these benefits when we reached a certain age. Exactly how are you saying we should have ideally handled this ?
 

sandwolf.sixpack

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I'm curious, are countertops and SS appliances something big builders can get great volume discounts on, while flooring and cabinets aren't, or is there some other reason why they go for those upgrades? Customer (dumb) preference maybe? Labor costs?
I am sure they just get more bang for their buck spending on countertops and SS appliances. A kitchen with granite/SS feels much nicer than one with tile/black appliances....and kitchens sell houses.
 
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johnson86-1

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Seems more like a GOP talking point than reality. Congress has complete control of the Administrative state. They're just to corrupt and incompetent to do their job.
It is true that if Congress was more competent and less corrupt, they would pull back the administrative state. But since they're not, it leaves the President with huge levers to use to either choke the economy or let it breathe. Can't really do much positive except for eliminate the wasteful costs already imposed through regulation, but that's a lot of room for doing something positive. Even then they have to come in with a plan as tons of bureaucrats improperly think of themselves as "experts" that are ordained to stop the political process from dictating policy when they know better.
 
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Seinfeld

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Pretty sure it was promising yourselves that younger, generally poorer workers would pay you a **** ton of money to you when you are older. I mean, that wasn't really a mistake for the boomers from the point of their self interest. It's the greatest en mass screwing the world has ever seen (at least excluding the occasional genocide and raping and pillaging, but even then none of those compare in scale).

But if you're talking about ways boomers screwed their kids and younger generations in general, that has to be at the top, right? And it was done knowingly, unlike say the housing shortage, which was sort of emerged from a lot of slightly ****** and selfish behavior interacting with facially benign policies.
Greatest mass screwing that somehow continues to get worse as laws are adjusted to ensure the payments continue regardless of life choices.

A 75 year old that’s never worked a day in his/her life can decide that they want a divorce to travel the world and per law, can continue to collect 50% of their spouse’s SS payment as long as they meet some minimal guidelines
 

Seinfeld

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Except that most Boomers are convinced that they paid for their SS and Medicare. That they like to lecture the yutes but miss that context is just so on point.
Yep, and they love leaving out the part about their current SS payment being double what they paid in + inflation
 

johnson86-1

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A few uneducated guesses:

  • For the flooring, "Real" wood floors are labor intensive and requires more skill to install, which of course is always a challenge when you're running a bunch of crews. I don't know that engineered wood takes any more skill than laminate, but I'm also not sure people like the engineered wood enough over laminate to justify any cost difference? And I guess engineered wood floors still have to acclimate? So maybe using laminate simplifies that also?
  • For the stainless steel, I don't think there is a big cost difference anymore? It's more about brand you're willing to go with and it's something that buyers put a lot of emphasis on.
  • Similar for for the countertops. Except I mispoke about the material. They actually do quartz, which I think has the benefit of being cheaper than most granite and also being consistent in color and pattern, something that's important when you're trying to make the same color combinations work in a few hundred homes. Not sure if it's easier or harder to work with. But when you're doing the same half dozen kitchen layouts over and over, maybe you can get them manufactured to fit?
  • For Cabinets I think consumers just don't notice unless and until stuff starts breaking. What really matters to builders is that they be easy to install and look good for a showing.
 

johnson86-1

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Who was promoting such a view ????? We were promise by our own government that if we invested in these programs we would receive these benefits when we reached a certain age. Exactly how are you saying we should have ideally handled this ?
You weren't promised that you could "invest" in these programs. You were offered the opportunity to deceive yourself and you took it.

The fact that social security was a glorified ponzi scheme with better guns behind it was talked about in the 2000 presidential election. I suspect it was probably discussed during the 1982 "fix" also.
 

mstateglfr

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Greatest mass screwing that somehow continues to get worse as laws are adjusted to ensure the payments continue regardless of life choices.

A 75 year old that’s never worked a day in his/her life can decide that they want a divorce to travel the world and per law, can continue to collect 50% of their spouse’s SS payment as long as they meet some minimal guidelines
How often is this scenario, or ones like it, happening? How many 75yo couple get divorced so one person can travel the world on half of the couple's SS payments?

Odd scenario aside- I am confident that the reason payments would be split is the same reason why most divorces are split. A couple's wealth should be split evenly, unless a legal agreement is made which lays out how it should be split.
The wealth created while a couple is a couple should absolutely be viewed as that couple's wealth. Sacrifices are often made which result in one person earning more than the other.


That couple chose to get married and chose to live the way they lived(with one never working a day in their life). Marriage is a contractual partnership.
 
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Seinfeld

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How often is this scenario, or ones like it, happening? How many 75yo couple get divorced so one person can travel the world on half of the couple's SS payments?

Odd scenario aside- I am confident that the reason payments would be split is the same reason why most divorces are split. A couple's wealth should be split evenly, unless a legal agreement is made which lays out how it should be split.
The wealth created while a couple is a couple should absolutely be viewed as that couple's wealth. Sacrifices are often made which result in one person earning more than the other.


That couple chose to get married and chose to live the way they lived(with one never working a day in their life). Marriage is a contractual partnership.
Therein lies the problem. The payments aren’t split. The person that earned the payment continues to get 100% while non-earner gets another 50%. My gripe with this isn’t so much about whether the average person believes this is right or not because opinions will always vary there. My gripe is that the system was never set up to be able to fund these levels of payouts, hence the mass underfunding problem that’s now in our hands while all the boomer generation can do is tell us good luck
 

IBleedMaroonDawg

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What you mean that Presidents don’t have buttons on the Resolute Desk saying More Inflation, Less Inflation, etc. **
So if we can't blame this president, how far back do we have to go? I forgot just the previous administration. That is the standard protocol.

If we really want to be honest, it started a long time ago. It's just fun to blame it on the previous White House Regime.
 
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Maroon Eagle

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So if we can't blame this president, how far back do we have to go? I forgot just the previous administration. That is the standard protocol.

If we really want to be honest, it started a long time ago. It's just fun to blame it on the previous White House Regime.
Exactly.

People love simple answers.

Life ain’t often all that simple though.
 

Seinfeld

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This seems oddly specific...
While maybe not common, roughly 1% of collectors are receiving spousal benefits from a failed marriage, and again… my gripe is not about two divorcees splitting assets and/or income. My gripe is that it’s not split, and there has never at any point been a plan to support these levels of payments
 
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Boom Boom

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Who was promoting such a view ????? We were promise by our own government that if we invested in these programs we would receive these benefits when we reached a certain age. Exactly how are you saying we should have ideally handled this ?
A promise that you'll get the benefits later doesn't mean you paid for the benefits.

I think most of the problem lies in SS being seen as not a transfer payment program. I guess govt shares some of the blame in that, but seems like something individual politicians were pushing, not the actual government.
 

OG Goat Holder

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Therein lies the problem. The payments aren’t split. The person that earned the payment continues to get 100% while non-earner gets another 50%. My gripe with this isn’t so much about whether the average person believes this is right or not because opinions will always vary there. My gripe is that the system was never set up to be able to fund these levels of payouts, hence the mass underfunding problem that’s now in our hands while all the boomer generation can do is tell us good luck
If you really get down to it, it’s not really about the boomers messing up or not. It’s just their general attitude towards it. They love to talk about how the country is going to hell but there’s no real action there. So yeah it’s like you said - good luck guys! But take of me when I’m in the hospital.
 
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dorndawg

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While maybe not common, roughly 1% of collectors are receiving spousal benefits from a failed marriage, and again… my gripe is not about two divorcees splitting assets and/or income. My gripe is that it’s not split, and there has never at any point been a plan to support these levels of payments
I think this is a good pace to remind everyone that Social Security is essentially an insurance policy, not a pension plan. We can of course debate whether this is a good thing or not, but this is the status quo.
 

Boom Boom

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A few uneducated guesses:

  • For the flooring, "Real" wood floors are labor intensive and requires more skill to install, which of course is always a challenge when you're running a bunch of crews. I don't know that engineered wood takes any more skill than laminate, but I'm also not sure people like the engineered wood enough over laminate to justify any cost difference? And I guess engineered wood floors still have to acclimate? So maybe using laminate simplifies that also?
  • For the stainless steel, I don't think there is a big cost difference anymore? It's more about brand you're willing to go with and it's something that buyers put a lot of emphasis on.
  • Similar for for the countertops. Except I mispoke about the material. They actually do quartz, which I think has the benefit of being cheaper than most granite and also being consistent in color and pattern, something that's important when you're trying to make the same color combinations work in a few hundred homes. Not sure if it's easier or harder to work with. But when you're doing the same half dozen kitchen layouts over and over, maybe you can get them manufactured to fit?
  • For Cabinets I think consumers just don't notice unless and until stuff starts breaking. What really matters to builders is that they be easy to install and look good for a showing.
Yep, mixed bag.

Laminate floors offers some cost benefit (likely a volume discount, plus spare pieces can be used on the next job), consistency, anyone can be trained pretty quickly to do it, minimal prep work, easy repair. Looks just as good to most buyers.

SS appliances are bang for buck. Minimal cost increase, buyers prefer the look.

Quartz rather than granite makes sense. I think you mean the engineered stuff, right? It's a bit easier to work with, but not by a lot. I think you still hire a supplier to come do it. I did one in a reno a couple years back, but that was on custom cabinets (forced into that by the layout), so maybe for standard countertops its different? I've learned the hard way it stains easier, don't do white in that stuff, but good luck reasoning the wife into that lol.

I think people notice cabinets.
 
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