These kids out here dropping like flies (13-year old TJs).....

[OG Goat Holder]

....and it's even kids who weren't over-pitched at a young age. And parents have no idea what's wrong, they keep chasing 'therapy' and what not, going to get 'opinions' from 5 different doctors.......I'm over here telling them that the kids have torn up their UCLs. Elbow hurts, hand is numb, can't throw strikes suddenly. I can name you 4 just in my little sphere. One is in therapy, two have had the actual surgery, one has a growth plate fracture and the other is complaining about arm pain but parents have him in a weekly pitching lesson anyway. One of the ones who had TJ pitched some in rec in 10U, didn't play anything in 11U and came back and pitched travel ball in 12U and now got hurt earlier this year at 13U. Point being, he hasn't been overpitched, really, though his nimrod coach did throw him a lot last year. Still shouldn't be ruining arms this soon.

It's like the year long constant movement, reps, and training for velocity with crap form is a bad thing? You ever been to watch one of these pitching lessons before? The whole movement is about creating more velocity with no regard to the fundamentals that protect the arm. Pedro Martinez was right 10 years ago.

It ain't just velo. It ain't just over-throwing. It ain't just fatigue. Those things can hurt but this whole epidemic is about folks throwing harder than their own natural ability. And the only activity they are doing is baseball. None of them play other sports, work out, play outside or anything. Just video games and phones.

 

[GloryDawg]

Yeah, they need to have their asses out throwing hay bales, washing the hog lot, planting the garden, worming the cows, pulling a brush hog with a 1976 John Deere 2030 and stacking lumber from the small pecker wood sawmill. Then after dark when the work is done for the day go down to the barn and lift weights on a bench made out of 2X12" with Sears and Robuck concrete weighs also working legs with cinder blocks. That would toughen up their little candy asses.

 

[NukeDogg]

Best kid on my nephew's travel team just had TJ surgery as a HS freshman. Not to worry though, half the kids on his travel team are being held back due to "maturity issues" so they will be freshmen again next year.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Yeah, they need to have their asses out throwing hay bales, washing the hog lot, planting the garden, worming the cows, pulling a brush hog with a 1976 John Deere 2030 and stacking lumber from the small pecker wood sawmill. Then after dark when the work is done for the day go down to the barn and lift weights on a bench made out of 2X12" with Sears and Robuck concrete weighs also working legs with cinder blocks. That would toughen up their little candy asses.

these kids are often not over worked. It’s that they don’t work all the non pitching muscles/ligaments/etc enough to provide support for the pitching motion when they try to throw hard.

 

[Crazy Cotton]

Yeah, they need to have their asses out throwing hay bales, washing the hog lot, planting the garden, worming the cows, pulling a brush hog with a 1976 John Deere 2030 and stacking lumber from the small pecker wood sawmill. Then after dark when the work is done for the day go down to the barn and lift weights on a bench made out of 2X12" with Sears and Robuck concrete weighs also working legs with cinder blocks. That would toughen up their little candy asses.

2030 was about the best tractor ever made. I still bushhog with my Grandpa's when I go to visit - that was his "big" tractor when he moved from 4 row to 8 row planting in the early 70s. He's got a 63 2010 that pulls the hay wagon and that thing is still a runner.

 

[dawgman42]

View attachment 792400
these kids are often not over worked. It’s that they don’t work all the non pitching muscles/ligaments/etc enough to provide support for the pitching motion when they try to throw hard.

Don't forget about resistance training with bitches from Okie State.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

stacking lumber from the small pecker wood sawmill

I don’t like wood sawmills either, but you don’t have to insult their dicks

 

[Dawg1976]

Best kid on my nephew's travel team just had TJ surgery as a HS freshman. Not to worry though, half the kids on his travel team are being held back due to "maturity issues" so they will be freshmen again next year.

I have a buddy who was the President of his 8th grade class 2 years in a row. This goes back to the late 60’s. Redshirting for sports has been going on for years….even in middle school.

 

[GloryDawg]

2030 was about the best tractor ever made. I still bushhog with my Grandpa's when I go to visit - that was his "big" tractor when he moved from 4 row to 8 row planting in the early 70s. He's got a 63 2010 that pulls the hay wagon and that thing is still a runner.

I still use our 2030 when I gun. Most of our land is now pine trees but there is still about 30 acres open.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

It's almost like the human arm wasn't meant to do certain things isn't it

 

[Drebin]

....and it's even kids who weren't over-pitched at a young age. And parents have no idea what's wrong, they keep chasing 'therapy' and what not, going to get 'opinions' from 5 different doctors.......I'm over here telling them that the kids have torn up their UCLs. Elbow hurts, hand is numb, can't throw strikes suddenly. I can name you 4 just in my little sphere. One is in therapy, two have had the actual surgery, one has a growth plate fracture and the other is complaining about arm pain but parents have him in a weekly pitching lesson anyway. One of the ones who had TJ pitched some in rec in 10U, didn't play anything in 11U and came back and pitched travel ball in 12U and now got hurt earlier this year at 13U. Point being, he hasn't been overpitched, really, though his nimrod coach did throw him a lot last year. Still shouldn't be ruining arms this soon.

It's like the year long constant movement, reps, and training for velocity with crap form is a bad thing? You ever been to watch one of these pitching lessons before? The whole movement is about creating more velocity with no regard to the fundamentals that protect the arm. Pedro Martinez was right 10 years ago.

It ain't just velo. It ain't just over-throwing. It ain't just fatigue. Those things can hurt but this whole epidemic is about folks throwing harder than their own natural ability. And the only activity they are doing is baseball. None of them play other sports, work out, play outside or anything. Just video games and phones.

A kid with UCL damage from pitching before ages 12/13 is extremely rare. You don't know four kids in your sphere who have torn up their UCLs. What you know are kids who are growing and having discomfort with growth plates. Virtually every kid who pitches has encountered this more than a few times, and the symptoms are unmistakable. If you do have a rare situation of a kid with UCL damage, it's because of some ridiculous training program that some "coach" is using, or some traumatic event. A UCL tear is a traumatic injury - it usually happens with force....and 10 year old kids aren't throwing explosive sliders or splitters that put abnormal pressure on that ligament.

#themoreyouknow

 

[HuntDawg]

While i agree with most of the OP

TJ isnt a death sentences anymore...

You want to pitch at a major college or past that... best throw hard... its risk/reward.... and before we say things like 13 year is too early an age.. i agree it is... but what is that age? If you wait until your 17-18 youre likely going to passed over from a recruiting standpoint.

 

[johnson86-1]

I have a buddy who was the President of his 8th grade class 2 years in a row. This goes back to the late 60’s. Redshirting for sports has been going on for years….even in middle school.

I think most school athletic associations fixed that to a limited extent. When we were growing up, if you were held back in the 7th grade or later, you didn't get to play Jr. High sports as a 9th grader. So you did get an extra year of eligibility, but you had to play high school as a 9th grader. That pretty much ensured that people that were going to "redshirt" did it in 6th grade, so they didn't just spend an extra year sitting on the bench as a 9th grader.

Then once you got to 10th grade, you had max three years of eligibility. Even if you still needed credits to graduate after those three years, there was no getting an extra year of eligibility.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

A kid with UCL damage from pitching before ages 12/13 is extremely rare. You don't know four kids in your sphere who have torn up their UCLs. What you know are kids who are growing and having discomfort with growth plates. Virtually every kid who pitches has encountered this more than a few times, and the symptoms are unmistakable. If you do have a rare situation of a kid with UCL damage, it's because of some ridiculous training program that some "coach" is using, or some traumatic event. A UCL tear is a traumatic injury - it usually happens with force....and 10 year old kids aren't throwing explosive sliders or splitters that put abnormal pressure on that ligament.

#themoreyouknow

You're right....I know 2 factually, without a shadow of a doubt, as I said before. Unless you think they paid for TJ for fun. One more in therapy, and one other having arm pain, for the reasons I listed - doesn't sound like growth plates to me. Then another with an actual growth plate fracture - not the same. And these are 13 year olds, not 10. People been throwing sliders and splitters forever, without all these UCL tears. It's from velo, period.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

While i agree with most of the OP

TJ isnt a death sentences anymore...

You want to pitch at a major college or past that... best throw hard... its risk/reward.... and before we say things like 13 year is too early an age.. i agree it is... but what is that age? If you wait until your 17-18 youre likely going to passed over from a recruiting standpoint.

I agree with all that.

I like what those Driveline guys are doing. They make no bones about it.....you have to throw hard.....and are trying to figure out a way to do it safely. Not sure if they'll ultimately succeed but they at least see the reality of things. They know how much athleticism and strength plays into it.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

If I had a son who wanted to be a baseball pitcher, I'd tell him to learn how to throw a knuckleball.

 

[HuntDawg]

I agree with all that.

I like what those Driveline guys are doing. They make no bones about it.....you have to throw hard.....and are trying to figure out a way to do it safely. Not sure if they'll ultimately succeed but they at least see the reality of things. They know how much athleticism and strength plays into it.

There retired high school coach in Louisana I think.. that prioritized weights, speed improvement, and arm strength. Basically says if he can teach them to run fast, throw hard, and be strong.... someone will take a chance on them at the next level regardless of how much they do or dont know about the actual game. And if they have any skill at all, then he's created a monster.

I actually think he had a baseline of like a 250 bench, 90 mph off the mound and you were for sure going to be picked up somewhere. And same fashion 250 bench, sub 7.0 60 guy, someone was going to pick you up somewhere and give you a shot... even if you couldnt hit a 85 mph FB or throw a strike. Because those college guys could "teach you the game".... those numbers may not be accurate, but you get the gist.

 

[basedawg]

I'm not going to say what I think about all this travel ball stuff.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

A kid with UCL damage from pitching before ages 12/13 is extremely rare. You don't know four kids in your sphere who have torn up their UCLs. What you know are kids who are growing and having discomfort with growth plates. Virtually every kid who pitches has encountered this more than a few times, and the symptoms are unmistakable. If you do have a rare situation of a kid with UCL damage, it's because of some ridiculous training program that some "coach" is using, or some traumatic event. A UCL tear is a traumatic injury - it usually happens with force....and 10 year old kids aren't throwing explosive sliders or splitters that put abnormal pressure on that ligament.

#themoreyouknow

Little League elbow has been a thing for decades. Its an overuse injury plain and simple. I'm sure it's really problematic nowadays.


My 5th grader is getting really serious about baseball. He's already decided to hang up the football pads and focus on baseball and wrestling. He's playing Little League this year and is probably the best pitcher in his league right now. He's a shoe in to make his all star team. The regular season ends mid May and then all stars practice every weekday and play in "outlaw" or travel ball tournaments on the weekends from late May through early July before districts and state tournaments for Little League in mid to late July.

He also wants to play in the fall league. I'm trying to decide if I should let him play All Stars (which also will cramp out summer fishing, hiking, and rafting plans) and say no to fall ball or vice versa. I feel like taking the summer off might be best for his arm. But no way will I let a 10-11 year old play for effectively 8 months straight.

I think I would rather him play again in September and October and then roll right into wrestling season. I just can't imagine as a 10-11 year old playing in 15-18 games in the spring, 15-20 in the summer and another 12-15 in the fall. That's 45-50 games. That's more than we played in high school and legion ball as 16-18 year olds.

One of the local travel teams is trying to recruit both of my kids to try out for next year's 8u and 12u teams. They try to play 50-75 games a year. I laughed. I tried explaining the reason he wants them is because they also play football and wrestle so they tend to be the most athletic kids on the field. If all they do is play baseball, they probably won't be such great athletes in a few years.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

He also wants to play in the fall league. I'm trying to decide if I should let him play All Stars (which also will cramp out summer fishing, hiking, and rafting plans) and say no to fall ball or vice versa. I feel like taking the summer off might be best for his arm. But no way will I let a 10-11 year old play for effectively 8 months straight.

I'd do summer and bail on fall ball. Fall is nothing but a way for tournament directors to play all day in better weather. Colleges just use it for fundamentals. Pretty much anybody that cares about the kids that time is better spent playing a different sport, working out and gearing up for the real spring season.

But....round here, most do take the summer off because of the heat. Bunch of pvssies.

 

[L4Dawg]

It's overthrowing and throwing year-round, i.e. not playing other sports. Ask an orthopedist.

 

[FormerBully]

It's overthrowing and throwing year-round, i.e. not playing other sports. Ask an orthopedist.

This is a major part of the problem. Our coach in high school often encouraged to play other sports to rest the body and the parts baseball worked.

 

[Drebin]

It's overthrowing and throwing year-round, i.e. not playing other sports. Ask an orthopedist.

Opie never needed Tommy John for skipping rocks*

 

[beachbumdawg]

I’m

I'd do summer and bail on fall ball. Fall is nothing but a way for tournament directors to play all day in better weather. Colleges just use it for fundamentals. Pretty much anybody that cares about the kids that time is better spent playing a different sport, working out and gearing up for the real spring season.

But....round here, most do take the summer off because of the heat. Bunch of pvssies.

depends on age

16u and up - play a couple and go to college prospect camps you are interested in get in weight room

below16u play light fall schedule and get in weight room

 

[OG Goat Holder]

This is a major part of the problem. Our coach in high school often encouraged to play other sports to rest the body and the parts baseball worked.

Don’t bother the Dominicans too much.

 

[MagnoliaHunter]

Don’t bother the Dominicans too much.

we only see the few who are physically able to handle it, not the majority who's arms/shoulders get torn up.

 

[DerHntr]

I have a buddy who was the President of his 8th grade class 2 years in a row. This goes back to the late 60’s. Redshirting for sports has been going on for years….even in middle school.

It’s much more common now. Our kids’ middle school sent out a text to all parents reminding them of the last day to declare a holdback for non-academic reasons. You have to hold back before 9th grade. After that, it affects eligibility. I guarantee you over 30% of the boys in my kids’ grades have been held back.

 

[beachbumdawg]

....and it's even kids who weren't over-pitched at a young age. And parents have no idea what's wrong, they keep chasing 'therapy' and what not, going to get 'opinions' from 5 different doctors.......I'm over here telling them that the kids have torn up their UCLs. Elbow hurts, hand is numb, can't throw strikes suddenly. I can name you 4 just in my little sphere. One is in therapy, two have had the actual surgery, one has a growth plate fracture and the other is complaining about arm pain but parents have him in a weekly pitching lesson anyway. One of the ones who had TJ pitched some in rec in 10U, didn't play anything in 11U and came back and pitched travel ball in 12U and now got hurt earlier this year at 13U. Point being, he hasn't been overpitched, really, though his nimrod coach did throw him a lot last year. Still shouldn't be ruining arms this soon.

It's like the year long constant movement, reps, and training for velocity with crap form is a bad thing? You ever been to watch one of these pitching lessons before? The whole movement is about creating more velocity with no regard to the fundamentals that protect the arm. Pedro Martinez was right 10 years ago.

It ain't just velo. It ain't just over-throwing. It ain't just fatigue. Those things can hurt but this whole epidemic is about folks throwing harder than their own natural ability. And the only activity they are doing is baseball. None of them play other sports, work out, play outside or anything. Just video games and phones.

It is trying to throw hard and you have poor mechanics while doing so - so what happens is their arm takes on the brunt of the work and each part fatigues at a different rate

those that say throwing year round is bad - I see more injuries from those that take time off than those that just go flat ground and lower the intensity of throwing

what happens is these kids that extended take time off don’t ramp up properly

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

I know this is totally anecdotal and therefore is not worth much but my dad would not allow me to throw anything other than a fastball and straight change-up until I was 13. I did throw as hard as I could but was not allowed to put any twisting motion on the ball. I was pretty good in Little League and did throw a few no hitters. I probably hit low 90s at my best but I never had any arm trouble. Also I didn't just pitch obviously and eventually stopped pitching. But not concentrating on one way to throw probably helped also.

I like the idea of diversification in sports for younger people.

 

[Dawg1976]

It’s much more common now. Our kids’ middle school sent out a text to all parents reminding them of the last day to declare a holdback for non-academic reasons. You have to hold back before 9th grade. After that, it affects eligibility. I guarantee you over 30% of the boys in my kids’ grades have been held back.

Wow. I had no idea.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Yeah, they need to have their asses out throwing hay bales, washing the hog lot, planting the garden, worming the cows, pulling a brush hog with a 1976 John Deere 2030 and stacking lumber from the small pecker wood sawmill. Then after dark when the work is done for the day go down to the barn and lift weights on a bench made out of 2X12" with Sears and Robuck concrete weighs also working legs with cinder blocks. That would toughen up their little candy asses.

Kudos. I think that “candy asses” is criminally underused these days.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

I have a buddy who was the President of his 8th grade class 2 years in a row. This goes back to the late 60’s. Redshirting for sports has been going on for years….even in middle school.

It's not allowed in MS public schools anymore

 

[HuntDawg]

It's not allowed in MS public schools anymore

pretty sure it is.. as long as it happens before the 7th grade. However there is an age factor, so they cant be held back twice.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I'd do summer and bail on fall ball. Fall is nothing but a way for tournament directors to play all day in better weather. Colleges just use it for fundamentals. Pretty much anybody that cares about the kids that time is better spent playing a different sport, working out and gearing up for the real spring season.

But....round here, most do take the summer off because of the heat. Bunch of pvssies.

The fall would be a league. Summer is tournaments. I just feel a league is so much better for developing a player. Practice... play a game.. identity areas of improvement during the game and practice them for a few days and play another game. Rinse and repeat. Then there's a little one and done tournament at the end of the season to crown a champ. You might play 3 games over the course of 5-7 days. Not 5-7 games in 3 days.

I've said it before, travel ball tournaments are nothing but a war of attrition. The ammunition for the war of attrition is prepubescent elbows that will throw 150+ pitches in 3-4 appearances in 5-7 games over a 3 day span. Not sure how that is anything like real baseball.

Instead of that we can run a long toss program for 6-8 weeks this summer. Spend time on the field with a few other kids sandlot style 3-5 times a week. And instead of spending every weekend in 100°+ heat stuck at a ballfield all day waiting to see when our next game is, we'll be up in the mountains camping, fishing, and rafting every weekend.

 

[paindonthurtDCD2]

I have a buddy who was the President of his 8th grade class 2 years in a row. This goes back to the late 60’s. Redshirting for sports has been going on for years….even in middle school.

Are we friends?

 

[paindonthurtDCD2]

A kid with UCL damage from pitching before ages 12/13 is extremely rare. You don't know four kids in your sphere who have torn up their UCLs. What you know are kids who are growing and having discomfort with growth plates. Virtually every kid who pitches has encountered this more than a few times, and the symptoms are unmistakable. If you do have a rare situation of a kid with UCL damage, it's because of some ridiculous training program that some "coach" is using, or some traumatic event. A UCL tear is a traumatic injury - it usually happens with force....and 10 year old kids aren't throwing explosive sliders or splitters that put abnormal pressure on that ligament.

#themoreyouknow

How dare you argue with @OG Goat Holder

 

[Bulldog45]

The

I've said it before, travel ball tournaments are nothing but a war of attrition. The ammunition for the war of attrition is prepubescent elbows that will throw 150+ pitches in 3-4 appearances in 5-7 games over a 3 day span. Not sure how that is anything like real baseball.

For many that is the case but it doesn’t have to be. Teach the whole roster to pitch and let them. You likely won’t make it to 7 games with that approach but winning a tournament at all costs shouldn’t be the focus of what you’re doing, but again it is for many. I’ve had umpires thank me when I pull a kid and they hear me tell them there’s nothing wrong with what they’re doing, but they’ve hit their pitch limit and they are done. Definitely seems to be the exception as opposed to the rule.

 

[dawgstudent]

For many that is the case but it doesn’t have to be. Teach the whole roster to pitch and let them. You likely won’t make it to 7 games with that approach but winning a tournament at all costs shouldn’t be the focus of what you’re doing, but again it is for many. I’ve had umpires thank me when I pull a kid and they hear me tell them there’s nothing wrong with what they’re doing, but they’ve hit their pitch limit and they are done. Definitely seems to be the exception as opposed to the rule.

We are in a 9U tournament and there was a team from an organization where one of the kids threw 170 pitches over the tournament.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The fall would be a league......Instead of that we can run a long toss program for 6-8 weeks this summer. Spend time on the field with a few other kids sandlot style 3-5 times a week. And instead of spending every weekend in 100°+ heat stuck at a ballfield all day waiting to see when our next game is, we'll be up in the mountains camping, fishing, and rafting every weekend.

Sounds like that is the best option for you, where you are.

Summer is tournaments. I just feel a league is so much better for developing a player. Practice... play a game.. identity areas of improvement during the game and practice them for a few days and play another game. Rinse and repeat. Then there's a little one and done tournament at the end of the season to crown a champ. You might play 3 games over the course of 5-7 days. Not 5-7 games in 3 days.

I've said it before, travel ball tournaments are nothing but a war of attrition. The ammunition for the war of attrition is prepubescent elbows that will throw 150+ pitches in 3-4 appearances in 5-7 games over a 3 day span. Not sure how that is anything like real baseball.

If one thinks that the MLB model is the way to play baseball, then tournaments are plain stupid, no ifs/ands/buts about it. It's contradictory to everything we know, for the reasons you already stated. I mean if that's the goal, whether it's to be an MLB player, or to just ultimately be a fan of the game, then what are we doing? Tournaments do nothing but make money for the directors and entertain the parents.

That said, we must recognize that the tournaments are exciting. I myself even enjoy being out there during the spring when the weather is nice. And plus it gives me a reason not to do yardwork. And also......colleges utilize this 'tournament' framework, especially in regionals. So what's the right way? Every other sport halfway uses some consistency from youth all the way to the pro level, with some minimal variability (like the NBA playing best of series, rather than a one and done). I don't know why we can't figure this out for baseball.

 

[HuntDawg]

The model actually works fine if you are serious about the sport.

The issue is the people in the middle or the people that have to work their tails off to remain good enough to be at tip of the elite level. The ones in the middle arent serious enough about it to give up their summers and weekends.. and wish everyone else would stop so they could stop too.

Again I dont think i've ever heard a college level type talent complain about travel ball.. or these current college playesr complain about going to the cape or another summer league for another season's worth of games to showcase their talents.

There is no real answer, because if your kid lives and breathes it... why would you make them stop? In other words if your kid(s) want to play baseball and want to be at the park... why would you not allow them to do so? You can find plenty of travel teams that dont over use pitchers and are well ran and coached if you look hard enough