Is it any surprise the Nose pickers in Michigan are cheaters? Currently under investigation by the NCAA illegally scouting

[Catch1lion]

Stalions has been described as a “savant” and wrote on his since-deleted LinkedIn page that he employed “Marine Corps philosophies and tactics” in his role. The signal stealer insists it’s not that difficult for others to pick up this skill.

“I promise you, within a day, I could take the average fan and watch three TV copies with them and they’ll know signals by the end of it,” he said. “We’re trying to signal in a play that a college kid has to comprehend. This isn’t rocket science. The signals are not ridiculously tough to figure out.”------- The Athletic 10/26

 

[MacNit2.0]

Stalions has been described as a “savant” and wrote on his since-deleted LinkedIn page that he employed “Marine Corps philosophies and tactics” in his role. The signal stealer insists it’s not that difficult for others to pick up this skill.

“I promise you, within a day, I could take the average fan and watch three TV copies with them and they’ll know signals by the end of it,” he said. “We’re trying to signal in a play that a college kid has to comprehend. This isn’t rocket science. The signals are not ridiculously tough to figure out.”------- The Athletic 10/26

Are others teams doing this?

Is it illegal?

 

[rudedude]

Breaking news: Michigan subterfuge goes even further. Reportedly they swapped Franklin’s offensive play call sheet with an Iowa one and that explains the offense vs OSU!

 

[BobPSU92]

Breaking news: Michigan subterfuge goes even further. Reportedly they swapped Franklin’s offensive play call sheet with an Iowa one and that explains the offense vs OSU!

View attachment 432695

 

[Catch1lion]

Are others teams doing this?

Is it illegal?

From what I gather, the illegal part is scouting games in person. This was done in an effort by the NCAA to level the playing field in costs between the haves and have nots. Hilarious. Also, you can't video an opponent in advance. You need to rely on provided game tapes.
Game time sign stealing is fine.

 

[yboby]

Interesting take: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/25/michigan-sign-stealing-funny/

 

[Catch1lion]

Interesting take: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/25/michigan-sign-stealing-funny/

Paywall, what's the gist of the article ?

 

[Rick76]

I posted this over on the Lion's Den, but I thought some of these statistics would be of interest on this board, too.


Did the sign stealing impact the games? Well, let's look at the numbers.

OSU and um have played seven times in the Harbaugh era. OSU won the first five; um won the next two.

In the five OSU wins, they average 44 pts per game. In the two losses, OSU average 25 pts per game.

Well, maybe the OSU offense wasn't as good in the two losses (2021 and 2022).

In 2021, OSU averaged 49 pts per game in their other 8 BIG games (leaving the um game out).

In 2022, OSU averaged 47 pts per game in their other 8 BIG games.

These were the years (21 and 22) when the OSU offense had Stroud, Henderson, Olave, Harrison, etc. These were very good offensive OSU teams. These were arguably more talented offenses than the Justin Fields, Haskins, J. T. Barrett led teams that had no problem rolling up huge numbers against um.

um did score more points in 21 and 22 than they had in their five losses. Was this because their offense was better or because OSU didn't score as much?

Maybe the weather had some effect. Maybe the um offense was better in 21 and 22. Maybe OSU dropped more passes and had more penalties.

Whatever the impact of those other factors, the fact remains that OSU scored far fewer points in 21 and 22 than they had in the other five games since the Harbaugh era began in 2015.

 

[Midnighter]

Brady Hoke beat James Franklin with one of Michigan's five worst teams in its history

Hoke is a better version of Franklin - excellent recruiter, poor coach.

 

[Ram20]

I posted this over on the Lion's Den, but I thought some of these statistics would be of interest on this board, too.


Did the sign stealing impact the games? Well, let's look at the numbers.

OSU and um have played seven times in the Harbaugh era. OSU won the first five; um won the next two.

In the five OSU wins, they average 44 pts per game. In the two losses, OSU average 25 pts per game.

Well, maybe the OSU offense wasn't as good in the two losses (2021 and 2022).

In 2021, OSU averaged 49 pts per game in their other 8 BIG games (leaving the um game out).

In 2022, OSU averaged 47 pts per game in their other 8 BIG games.

These were the years (21 and 22) when the OSU offense had Stroud, Henderson, Olave, Harrison, etc. These were very good offensive OSU teams. These were arguably more talented offenses than the Justin Fields, Haskins, J. T. Barrett led teams that had no problem rolling up huge numbers against um.

um did score more points in 21 and 22 than they had in their five losses. Was this because their offense was better or because OSU didn't score as much?

Maybe the weather had some effect. Maybe the um offense was better in 21 and 22. Maybe OSU dropped more passes and had more penalties.

Whatever the impact of those other factors, the fact remains that OSU scored far fewer points in 21 and 22 than they had in the other five games since the Harbaugh era began in 2015.

I don't know the exact numbers(and I am too lazy to look them up), but UM was like .300 ATS for betting in 15-20 and had the biggest success rate ATS, like .700 from 21-22. Not only did they "evolve" in a stunning way in terms of wins, but they basically upended the Vegas models in 21-22. TIFWIW

 

[leinbacker]

I guess sharing is caring

Michigan Reportedly May Have Assisted Another School With Signs It Had Stolen To Prevent A Specific Opponent From Making The CFP

FootballScoop — Sources told FootballScoop this week that the Wolverines had scouted SEC foes, including Georgia and Tennessee, as potential College Football Playoff adversaries.Moreover, a source wit...

www.barstoolsports.com

 

[HappyValley1]

Hoke is a better version of Franklin - excellent recruiter, poor coach.

FFS this can’t be a serious take.

 

[Midnighter]

FFS this can’t be a serious take.

It is. Hoke actually a better recruiter. Just wasn’t given a long enough leash to rack up chump wins like CJF.

 

[HappyValley1]

It is. Hoke actually a better recruiter. Just wasn’t given a long enough leash to rack up chump wins like CJF.

This board has completely lost its mind.

 

[Ivan Putski]

Sources: NCAA investigating Michigan football for alleged rule violations related to sign stealing

The Big Ten Conference received notification from the NCAA that the organization is conducting an investigation into the Wolverines.

sports.yahoo.com

Sorry to rain on your parade.
Get with it, nothing is going to happen to them.
Or Michigan State for that matter.

 

[Ram20]

I guess sharing is caring

Michigan Reportedly May Have Assisted Another School With Signs It Had Stolen To Prevent A Specific Opponent From Making The CFP

FootballScoop — Sources told FootballScoop this week that the Wolverines had scouted SEC foes, including Georgia and Tennessee, as potential College Football Playoff adversaries.Moreover, a source wit...

www.barstoolsports.com

thats just crazy. If true, there are going to be a ton of teams with a major beef with UM

 

[GreggK]

Sorry to rain on your parade.
Get with it, nothing is going to happen to them.
Or Michigan State for that matter.

If you don't think Harbaugh and his entire staff are done, you have your head buried.

 

[Catch1lion]

10/26/23 WSJ
On the specifics of the Michigan matter, what's being alleged and iinvestigated --whether anyone connected to Wolverines football broke the rules by scouting games of rivals and filming sidelines, hoping to glean information about signals, I have a few thoughts:
Foremost, my heart goes out to any individual or individuals who allegedly traveled around the heartland, trying to stay awake and watch a comprehensive season of Big Ten football. Riveting theater, this is often not. If you've ever wanted to pass 3 months of Saturdays falling asleep on your feet watching failed runs, incomplete screen passes, botched kicks and dropped interceptions, this would be the experience for you. OSU vs. Michigan is one thing, and yes, some PAC-12 glamour is on its way, but I would much rather watch the marching bands at 2/3rds of these schools than the football. In fact, if these allegations are proven true, a suitable punishment for illegally scouting Big 10 football is: being forced to watch more Big 10 football.
For most Big 10 teams, do signals even matter? At least half of this league is simply running up the middle, between the tackles, 3 times, for an avg. of 1.8 yards, then punting. There: I just saved you $1,200 in gas money. - Jason Gay

 

[BobPSU92]

If you don't think Harbaugh and his entire staff are done, you have your head buried.

The awkward thing is that this scandal broke in the middle of the season, a season in which it can be argued that um is a favorite to win the national championship. espn stated a few days ago that an ncaa investigation likely would not conclude until next year. I doubt um or the b1g will take any meaningful action before the ncaa. So for now, we have the scandal hanging over the heads of um and their future opponents. It is hard enough to beat um right now with a level playing field. Now opponents have the added concern that um knows their plays. The games will go on as planned but could be meaningless some time after the season if the ncaa finds truly damning evidence implicating hairball and his staff. It’s a mess.

 

[leinbacker]

The awkward thing is that this scandal broke in the middle of the season, a season in which it can be argued that um is a favorite to win the national championship. espn stated a few days ago that an ncaa investigation likely would not conclude until next year. I doubt um or the b1g will take any meaningful action before the ncaa. So for now, we have the scandal hanging over the heads of um and their future opponents. It is hard enough to beat um right now with a level playing field. Now opponents have the added concern that um knows their plays. The games will go on as planned but could be meaningless some time after the season if the ncaa finds truly damning evidence implicating hairball and his staff. It’s a mess.

Does this mean we will need to add an asterisks from now on after Harbaugh*, um*, etc?

 

[BobPSU92]

Does this mean we will need to add an asterisks from now on after Harbaugh*, um*, etc?

Honestly, I doubt it. I expect that no direct link between stalion’s activities and hairball will be uncovered. Perhaps an assistant or two will take the fall, but I doubt that hairball will. That doesn’t mean that I assume him to have been truly in the dark. I just don’t expect to see such evidence revealed.

The ncaa may also have difficulty in proving that stalion’s shenanigans influenced the outcome of any um games.

One possibility is that no damning evidence against hairball is made public but he leaves um quietly for the NFL or to “spend time with his family”. Still, I would not be at all surprised to see hairball coaching um and for this to be a dead issue by next season.

With the way that um is rolling under hairball and with the way in which the b1g traditionally covets um football, I just can’t see the um program blowing up over this.

 

[Ivan Putski]

If you don't think Harbaugh and his entire staff are done, you have your head buried.

Just may make his decision easier when an NFL team comes calling.
After that, nothing happens to the school.

 

[psu31trap]

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think anything comes from this investigation. I just think it will be very difficult to prove on multiple levels. Think about it this way, if the NCAA fell flat on its face when it tried to drop the hammer on UNC for offering no-show classes and proof of inflated grades for their athletes to stay eligible, this is going to be swept under the rug. I could be wrong, but I just don't see this as a fair fight especially when one considers who has the deeper pockets.

 

[Tom_PSU]

The awkward thing is that this scandal broke in the middle of the season, a season in which it can be argued that um is a favorite to win the national championship. espn stated a few days ago that an ncaa investigation likely would not conclude until next year. I doubt um or the b1g will take any meaningful action before the ncaa. So for now, we have the scandal hanging over the heads of um and their future opponents. It is hard enough to beat um right now with a level playing field. Now opponents have the added concern that um knows their plays. The games will go on as planned but could be meaningless some time after the season if the ncaa finds truly damning evidence implicating hairball and his staff. It’s a mess.

Honestly, I doubt it. I expect that no direct link between stalion’s activities and hairball will be uncovered. Perhaps an assistant or two will take the fall, but I doubt that hairball will. That doesn’t mean that I assume him to have been truly in the dark. I just don’t expect to see such evidence revealed.

The ncaa may also have difficulty in proving that stalion’s shenanigans influenced the outcome of any um games.

One possibility is that no damning evidence against hairball is made public but he leaves um quietly for the NFL or to “spend time with his family”. Still, I would not be at all surprised to see hairball coaching um and for this to be a dead issue by next season.

With the way that um is rolling under hairball and with the way in which the b1g traditionally covets um football, I just can’t see the um program blowing up over this.

Two rational posts back to back. My head is spinning. I’d better just go lay down and dream of scones and lattes until this insanity passes.

 

[GreggK]

It will be interesting to see what the CFP committee will do with this.

 

[Midnighter]

This board has completely lost its mind.

I was being TIC. But Hoke did recruit two Top Five classes while at Michigan in four years. They barely let one class cycle through though before canning him. Weird time at UM with Robinson at QB.

 

[PSU87]

I was being TIC. But Hoke did recruit two Top Five classes while at Michigan in four years. They barely let one class cycle through though before canning him. Weird time at UM with Robinson at QB.

Not as weird as Rich Rod with 4CA at QB

 

[BobPSU92]

Not as weird as Rich Rod with 4CA at QB

 

[Obliviax]

anyone remember that UM fired their Offensive Coordinator Matt Weiss back in January for suspected computer fraud? Detroit Free Press confirms that an active investigation between the police and FBI is "extensive and ongoing".

FBI joined U-M Police's investigation on ex-Michigan football OC Matt Weiss months ago​

 

[ODShowtime]

Why would you post that when you can post the one where he's in Xanadu?

ok I just spent a half hour looking for it and can't find it. Disappointing.

 

[Catch1lion]

anyone remember that UM fired their Offensive Coordinator Matt Weiss back in January for suspected computer fraud? Detroit Free Press confirms that an active investigation between the police and FBI is "extensive and ongoing".

FBI joined U-M Police's investigation on ex-Michigan football OC Matt Weiss months ago​

Guessing an informant with working knowledge of the scheme tipped off the 3rd party investigation. He is a better guess than most as the mole.

 

[leinbacker]

anyone remember that UM fired their Offensive Coordinator Matt Weiss back in January for suspected computer fraud? Detroit Free Press confirms that an active investigation between the police and FBI is "extensive and ongoing".

FBI joined U-M Police's investigation on ex-Michigan football OC Matt Weiss months ago​

"report of computer access crimes" that occurred in Schembechler Hall

Wonder if the cheaters were trying to hack opponent's computers. They don't see to be the brightest bunch given they used credit cards in their own names to buy tickets.

 

[MacNit2.0]

From what I gather, the illegal part is scouting games in person. This was done in an effort by the NCAA to level the playing field in costs between the haves and have nots. Hilarious. Also, you can't video an opponent in advance. You need to rely on provided game tapes.
Game time sign stealing is fine.

So if someone’s game film captures what you need, all is good.

Sounds like a technicality!

 

[PSUSignore]

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think anything comes from this investigation. I just think it will be very difficult to prove on multiple levels. Think about it this way, if the NCAA fell flat on its face when it tried to drop the hammer on UNC for offering no-show classes and proof of inflated grades for their athletes to stay eligible, this is going to be swept under the rug. I could be wrong, but I just don't see this as a fair fight especially when one considers who has the deeper pockets.

They seem to have plenty of proof because it appears that Conner Stalions is the dumbest cheater on the planet. He bought tickets in his own name. There are records of him transferring them. There apparently is video evidence of someone in one such seat recording the sidelines. Reminder, the use of electronic equipment is a specific aspect of the NCAA rules. There apparently is photo evidence of Conner himself at a Friday night game of a future opponent. Paid staffers attending other games of future opponents is a specific aspect of the NCAA rules. His Venmo had been public and showed transactions that indicated transfers of money for games, for example using a peach logo for a Georgia game week. They have followed the money and found at least 5 figures spent for the operation, but Conner's salary is $55k so clearly he's not spending 20%+ of his pay to fund this and others are going to be found bankrolling it, it's just a matter of who.

There's tons of evidence. With the recent NCAA rule that head coaches are responsible for what goes on in their program even if there's no evidence directly tying it to them I don't see any way that Harbaugh escapes this untouched. The real question is going to be what the punishment is, who will dole it out (NCAA, Big 10, CFP committee, etc.) and when it's coming.

 

[ChiTownLionPSU]

IT IS WHAT IT IS??

 

[LB99]

I was being TIC. But Hoke did recruit two Top Five classes while at Michigan in four years. They barely let one class cycle through though before canning him. Weird time at UM with Robinson at QB.

Hoke was 31-20 at Michigan and just 18-14 in B1G conference games, despite really good recruiting classes.

 

[LB99]

Just may make his decision easier when an NFL team comes calling.
After that, nothing happens to the school.

Maybe. He’ll probably tuck his tail and run like Carroll and Chip Kelly when sanctions were about to be handed out. Although, it isn’t the first offense for this staff, so will the NCAA deem it the dreaded, “lack of institutional control”?

 

[ChiTownLionPSU]

The Tennessee post says the guys scouting knew they were not allowed to talk to Harbaugh about it. I'm going to go with yes, they knew it was not allowed.

How does a conversation like that go down? Someone tells an assistant who then tells Jim Harbaugh that he can steal every opponent’s plays. Harbaugh then holds a meeting with his OC and DC and tells them, “guys, if someone, someday hypothetically comes into possession of an opponent’s plays, that might be useful data for some but it can never, ever reach the head coach.”

They seem to have plenty of proof because it appears that Conner Stalions is the dumbest cheater on the planet. He bought tickets in his own name. There are records of him transferring them. There apparently is video evidence of someone in one such seat recording the sidelines. Reminder, the use of electronic equipment is a specific aspect of the NCAA rules. There apparently is photo evidence of Conner himself at a Friday night game of a future opponent. Paid staffers attending other games of future opponents is a specific aspect of the NCAA rules. His Venmo had been public and showed transactions that indicated transfers of money for games, for example using a peach logo for a Georgia game week. They have followed the money and found at least 5 figures spent for the operation, but Conner's salary is $55k so clearly he's not spending 20%+ of his pay to fund this and others are going to be found bankrolling it, it's just a matter of who.

There's tons of evidence. With the recent NCAA rule that head coaches are responsible for what goes on in their program even if there's no evidence directly tying it to them I don't see any way that Harbaugh escapes this untouched. The real question is going to be what the punishment is, who will dole it out (NCAA, Big 10, CFP committee, etc.) and when it's coming.

 

[leinbacker]

 

[K-Live]

"report of computer access crimes" that occurred in Schembechler Hall

Wonder if the cheaters were trying to hack opponent's computers. They don't see to be the brightest bunch given they used credit cards in their own names to buy tickets.

Gordon Liddy would have loved these guys.