Mississippi towns (such as Starkville) and integration

[PBDog]

Diversity is over-rated. Are Honda and Kia successful because they're diverse? The market, and choices consumers make, allows for improvements and innovations. I suppose you can say a diverse group of Europeans helped America became a great power and a superpower but that's typically not what "diverse" means. America won WWII with a segregated military. That doesn't mean diversity is always bad. Intellectual diversity seems to be what's most important rather than carefully arranged sets of genitalia and melanin to satisfy some diversity standard. Africa is diverse and so is the Middle East. China is about 98% Han Chinese. Who has had the greatest economic advancements and increased standard of living for their people?

what does evolution say? did humans advance diversification with surrounding villages?

 

[Podgy]

Atlanta's history in the civil rights era, the city too busy to hate, is a bit different than Mississippi's. Some of those suburbs are like a UN gathering of different people. You can get a lot of good, different food. You don't want a place to be defined by the worst behaving elements of those societies. I always found it weird and bizarre that grown adults wanted to keep the rebel flag on the state flag. That wasn't a good symbol for the state but it was apparently a key symbol the state wanted the rest of the country to notice. The "this is our culture and heritage" types seemed unconcerned about what others thought about that culture and heritage.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Intellectual diversity seems to be what's most important

Boom

 

[PBDog]

Boom

bigot**

 

[Coast_Dawg]

Of course the Coast is great. No one is stealing that industry. The first thing that needs to go is this competition and status contest between different areas of MS. And I see that now.....a couple folks talking about the ghettos in Gulfport and Moss Point, who obviously don't know what a true ghetto is.

As far as the Golden Triangle....do you not go to Starkville routinely? Have you not seen the improvements or heard of any of the economic development wins there? There's a ton of things in that 3 city area, and of course Starkville has been the biggest benefactor, because that's where everybody wants to live.

No, I do not go to Starkville routinely. Life keeps me busy doing other things. That’s why I asked because I truly don’t know.

 

[Coast_Dawg]

New Orleans is diverse. Sending your kids to most of those public schools that are diverse is a bad idea.

Not seeing why you replied to me. What did I miss?

 

[TrueMaroonGrind]

I’ve lived on the coast a good while now. Some things I’ve noticed that make it different are the job opportunities. There’s the state’s largest employer in HII. There’s also other smaller shipyards scattered from Pascagoula to Gulfport. There’s also the seafood industry and plenty of coastline for casinos. 2 of those 3 can’t exist anywhere else in the state. A decent job can always be found down here. Can the same be said for the rest of the state? I don’t believe so.

People from Ocean Springs or even just short timers that have an association with the place are quite prideful about it. Madison is about the only other city I’ve heard people be as prideful about in the state.

For small towns, such as Starkville, which might not be small for the case of the OP’s point, what keeps them going? Is there any industry that keeps it going other than being a college town? What is there to keep all the other small towns in the state growing and prospering? A lot of places, you have to drive 20-30 miles just to get groceries.

The biggest problem with “improvements” in industry is that generally it’s always done to increase profits and likely reduces the workforce. Automation and larger more sophisticated equipment just means there’s less people working. If that’s what happens, are improvements really improvements if it takes a job from somebody to improve the bottom line for the owner or shareholders?

Are there actually “segregation” schools throughout the state? My experience was if you paid tuition and made the grades, you could stay regardless of your racial makeup. Do some consider JA, Prep, MRA, among others as “segregation private schools”?

I’m aware of many families here who send their kids to Catholic schools that aren’t white or Catholic. Not sure where the segregation part comes into play.


This is an overall interesting topic other than the fact that race was a driver in the topic. Thanks for all the wisdom y’all share. Keep it coming.

Segregation schools were private schools that popped up immediately in response to de-segregation in the public schools. They are very prominent in the NW and delta regions of the state. They do not specifically prevent non-whites from enrolling now. From what I understand the catholic schools were founded well before that the 1960s. Most segregation schools were founded in the late 1960s.

IMO it is not the only reason why certain towns struggle but it is a contributing factor. People who grew up outside those areas don’t want to pay good money for an average to subpar education. They want good public schools. Lack of opportunity due to no economic center, globalization killing manufacturing jobs and a general trend of young people moving towards cities are also major effects.

PS. My family including myself have gone to one of these private schools since they opened. I wasn’t really aware of the history of it all until after I left.

 

[preacher_dawg]

One thing, and that is that I am not saying that the private schools are not necessarily racist now, but when they first started to form over racist reasons, it had long term effects over the towns themselves that many cannot recover from. I saw this first hand when I lived in Alabama. There wasn't much racism in the town, especially the private school that I was part of, but there two separate communities, one black and one white that as much one tried, you never could overcome.

 

[PhiDawg]

I’ve lived on the coast a good while now. Some things I’ve noticed that make it different are the job opportunities. There’s the state’s largest employer in HII. There’s also other smaller shipyards scattered from Pascagoula to Gulfport. There’s also the seafood industry and plenty of coastline for casinos. 2 of those 3 can’t exist anywhere else in the state. A decent job can always be found down here. Can the same be said for the rest of the state? I don’t believe so.

People from Ocean Springs or even just short timers that have an association with the place are quite prideful about it. Madison is about the only other city I’ve heard people be as prideful about in the state.

For small towns, such as Starkville, which might not be small for the case of the OP’s point, what keeps them going? Is there any industry that keeps it going other than being a college town? What is there to keep all the other small towns in the state growing and prospering? A lot of places, you have to drive 20-30 miles just to get groceries.

The biggest problem with “improvements” in industry is that generally it’s always done to increase profits and likely reduces the workforce. Automation and larger more sophisticated equipment just means there’s less people working. If that’s what happens, are improvements really improvements if it takes a job from somebody to improve the bottom line for the owner or shareholders?

Are there actually “segregation” schools throughout the state? My experience was if you paid tuition and made the grades, you could stay regardless of your racial makeup. Do some consider JA, Prep, MRA, among others as “segregation private schools”?

I’m aware of many families here who send their kids to Catholic schools that aren’t white or Catholic. Not sure where the segregation part comes into play.


This is an overall interesting topic other than the fact that race was a driver in the topic. Thanks for all the wisdom y’all share. Keep it coming.

Seg academy is a loaded 1965 term. 1964-1965 academies were likely Council schools. Fair to hate on them in my book. The 1970 academies were likely founded in response to busing. Harder to hate families and their schools on this issue…I wouldnt want my young lower schoolers boarding a bus at 645am to travel across town to an elementary school when the neighborhood school is three blocks away

 

[ETK99]

It's 100% about population and spending power folks. You want to see growth, you throw bodies with spending power into a community. Everything else takes care of itself from there. Money makes the world go round.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It's 100% about population and spending power folks. You want to see growth, you throw bodies with spending power into a community. Everything else takes care of itself from there. Money makes the world go round.

We all know this. The key talking point is how to attract or grow the businesses that create "bodies with spending power".

Right now, the only unified areas I truly see is the Golden Triangle and the Coast. Those two areas have their shlt together, but both also face some challenges. GTR is 3 small towns to begin with, and not on an interstate, bad soil and MSU suffers from being so close to Ole Miss and Alabama). The Coast is in a proven hurricane-prone area.

Hattiesburg-Laurel has a good economy and seem to be pulling the right strings, and located on an interstate. Some potential there.

Jackson has all the potential in the world but cannot behave. Interstates, employers, governmental and business center of the state - and still sucks. It's been rehashed over and over.

And on the state level, we spread out our wins, but you take what you can get I suppose. State was spread out from the beginning, and we always fight over the scraps. I mean take Tupelo and the GTR for example.....if you combine those, you'd have something serious, probably similar to NW Arkansas. Just think if you had combined the airport, business and infrastructure resources of those two areas and located in Tupelo, with Ole Miss not far away, and now the Toyota plant, all semi-along I-22. And then if MSU was down somewhere west of Clinton, I-20 from Vicksburg to Jackson would be totally different. You'd have two incredible development corridors. But nope, we are as spread out as physically possible. It's very frustrating. And I get that I have the benefit of hindsight now, but there's no doubt we've made this as difficult as possible.

Not to mention the benefits of having a Memphis or Mobile inside our state borders.

 

[Coast_Dawg]

Seg academy is a loaded 1965 term. 1964-1965 academies were likely Council schools. Fair to hate on them in my book. The 1970 academies were likely founded in response to busing. Harder to hate families and their schools on this issue…I wouldnt want my young lower schoolers boarding a bus at 645am to travel across town to an elementary school when the neighborhood school is three blocks away

Thanks for the information. Learned something new.

 

[Coast_Dawg]

Segregation schools were private schools that popped up immediately in response to de-segregation in the public schools. They are very prominent in the NW and delta regions of the state. They do not specifically prevent non-whites from enrolling now. From what I understand the catholic schools were founded well before that the 1960s. Most segregation schools were founded in the late 1960s.

IMO it is not the only reason why certain towns struggle but it is a contributing factor. People who grew up outside those areas don’t want to pay good money for an average to subpar education. They want good public schools. Lack of opportunity due to no economic center, globalization killing manufacturing jobs and a general trend of young people moving towards cities are also major effects.

PS. My family including myself have gone to one of these private schools since they opened. I wasn’t really aware of the history of it all until after I left.

Thanks for the information. Learned something new.

 

[ETK99]

We all know this. The key talking point is how to attract or grow the businesses that create "bodies with spending power".

Right now, the only unified areas I truly see is the Golden Triangle and the Coast. Those two areas have their shlt together, but both also face some challenges. GTR is 3 small towns to begin with, and not on an interstate, bad soil and MSU suffers from being so close to Ole Miss and Alabama). The Coast is in a proven hurricane-prone area.

Hattiesburg-Laurel has a good economy and seem to be pulling the right strings, and located on an interstate. Some potential there.

Jackson has all the potential in the world but cannot behave. Interstates, employers, governmental and business center of the state - and still sucks. It's been rehashed over and over.

And on the state level, we spread out our wins, but you take what you can get I suppose. State was spread out from the beginning, and we always fight over the scraps. I mean take Tupelo and the GTR for example.....if you combine those, you'd have something serious, probably similar to NW Arkansas. Just think if you had combined the airport, business and infrastructure resources of those two areas and located in Tupelo, with Ole Miss not far away, and now the Toyota plant, all semi-along I-22. And then if MSU was down somewhere west of Clinton, I-20 from Vicksburg to Jackson would be totally different. You'd have two incredible development corridors. But nope, we are as spread out as physically possible. It's very frustrating. And I get that I have the benefit of hindsight now, but there's no doubt we've made this as difficult as possible.

Not to mention the benefits of having a Memphis or Mobile inside our state borders.

Smaller towns aren't going to do it. The only benefit of a smaller town in MS is the school system if it's good, you're a farmer, and real estate is cheap. You aren't getting a big tech company or something to them in Mississippi if there's no prospects for growth and people activities, and a good school for kids. I've done some rental property stuff in small town MS and everyone that moved in always said the same thing- there's nothing to do here, and they left. Now the place is dying because the school went south.
Now Starkville itself already has tech companies. It's got a feeder university to keep qualified people coming in and Starkville is a decent scene except in the summer. It lacks big retail is about it. There's industry in the area. This idea of diversity is more a product of an educated group of people than actual diversity.

 

[L4Dawg]

Jackson Metro and Desoto County i.e. Memphis are solid employers. Golden Triangle, Tupelo and the Hattiesburg areas are as well, as far as smaller areas.


The Golden Triangle????

I realize your point may be about small towns and not Starkville, but you've kinda got it classified the wrong way. Starkville isn't Waynesboro. But as far as what keeps small towns going, well, usually a core group of companies/businesses. And they don't all keep going, they grow or they wither up. And this whole deal about supporting the public schools or this/that is largely a small town MS survival strategy since most places that's a non-issue because there's real growth. Take care of the economy and the schools will take care of themselves.


A good many of them may have started that way, but none still exist in that posture.

The GTR area is doing better than you think. There are some MAJOR industries there now, and another is building.

 

[She Mate Me]

bad soil and MSU suffers from being so close to Ole Miss and Alabama).

Do North Carolina, Duke and NC State suffer from being so close together?

 

[She Mate Me]

bad soil and MSU suffers from being so close to Ole Miss and Alabama).

And what's the bad soil comment? Columbus exists because of great soil and the Tombigbee.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The GTR area is doing better than you think. There are some MAJOR industries there now, and another is building.

I've been taking up for the GT in this thread. Not sure why you're responding to me.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Do North Carolina, Duke and NC State suffer from being so close together?

Research Triangle has like 2M people with enough to go around (not to mention the overall population of NC), but still, I do think your point is fair and valid. I conflated athletic success, and having a 'base' area we don't share in close proximity, to actual growth/development success of an area.

NC's population was the same as MS's - in the 20s.

 

[L4Dawg]

I've been taking up for the GT in this thread. Not sure why you're responding to me.

I went back and read again, I responded to the wrong person.

 

[L4Dawg]

And what's the bad soil comment? Columbus exists because of great soil and the Tombigbee.

Yep, Columbus was a rich little river port back in plantation times.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

And what's the bad soil comment? Columbus exists because of great soil and the Tombigbee.

Bad for building/development/infrastructure. It's obviously great soil for ag/farming - black prairie and stuff. One of the reasons Starkville was chosen for MSU, along with the donated land being away from anything fun for the cadets.

Which is why I still say between Vicksburg and Jackson was a great place. Better soil on some of the bluffs but still have the Delta and River right there at your fingertips.

 

[L4Dawg]

As a general rule in Mississippi, where there is a private academy that was founded within a few years of integration, the public schools tend to be bad. There are exceptions I'm sure, but not many.

 

[L4Dawg]

Bad for building/development/infrastructure. It's obviously great soil for ag/farming - black prairie and stuff. One of the reasons Starkville was chosen for MSU, along with the donated land being away from anything fun for the cadets.

Which is why I still say between Vicksburg and Jackson was a great place. Better soil on some of the bluffs but still have the Delta and River right there at your fingertips.

The same soil is out around the GTR airport. It doesn't seem to be holding that place back development wise.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The same soil is out around the GTR airport. It doesn't seem to be holding that place back development wise.

Stop, dude, you're arguing with an engineer. These are facts. You can work around expansive clays, I mean a big portion of Jackson does it (including almost all of Madison) as well as Starkville. But it's not a plus for an area as far as building goes - it's a negative, that has to mitigated.

 

[TrueMaroonGrind]

Do North Carolina, Duke and NC State suffer from being so close together?

No but North Carolina is a very rich state. Plenty of money

One thing, and that is that I am not saying that the private schools are not necessarily racist now, but when they first started to form over racist reasons, it had long term effects over the towns themselves that many cannot recover from. I saw this first hand when I lived in Alabama. There wasn't much racism in the town, especially the private school that I was part of, but there two separate communities, one black and one white that as much one tried, you never could overcome.

The separation of the communities does happen in these communities. You really don’t even have the opportunity to know half of the people in your town. Idk what you do at this point. The toothpaste is squeezed at this point. The schools are bad. For most of these areas the only option for a decent education is the private schools.

Like others have mentioned money is the great equalizer but unfortunately Mississippi has none.

 

[L4Dawg]

Stop, dude, you're arguing with an engineer. These are facts. You can work around expansive clays, I mean a big portion of Jackson does it (including almost all of Madison) as well as Starkville. But it's not a plus for an area as far as building goes - it's a negative, that has to mitigated.

I used to work in construction, in the Triangle. I'm familiar with that stuff. I just said it didn't seem to be holding it back.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The separation of the communities does happen in these communities. You really don’t even have the opportunity to know half of the people in your town. Idk what you do at this point. The toothpaste is squeezed at this point. The schools are bad. For most of these areas the only option for a decent education is the private schools.

The decline of these communities started before the schools divided or what not. Folks looking to blame that for a decline are just looking to find blame.

Starkville, Hattiesburg and Cleveland are doing just fine, and they are in areas where private schools sprung up due to that sort of thing, or public schools not being good, whatever. And they are all doing fine because they have economic engines.

So you're absolutely right about the money. If money is there, people will figure out the race bullshlt and move past it.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Seg academy is a loaded 1965 term. 1964-1965 academies were likely Council schools. Fair to hate on them in my book. The 1970 academies were likely founded in response to busing. Harder to hate families and their schools on this issue…I wouldnt want my young lower schoolers boarding a bus at 645am to travel across town to an elementary school when the neighborhood school is three blocks away

It’s more likely the 1970 academies (one of which I attended and graduated) were founded because in 1969 the US Supreme Court ordered immediate desegregation in Alexander v. Holmes County Board of Education

Alexander v. Holmes County Board of Education - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I take no stance on anything mentioned in this thread. I am just so shocked that it remained open. I would say good job on civil discourse fellas, but as soon as I do someone will prove me wrong on that.

 

[Podgy]

what does evolution say? did humans advance diversification with surrounding villages?

Evolution doesn't "say" anything although I'd be interested in finding out what traits, or genes, and from what populations, you believe are most important in modern society. But I guess if evolution naturally produces diversity then I have a diverse family. I just thought we were all white people but apparently a business can hire my entire family and be diverse and inclusive of diversity. We're products of evolution and we all have some genetic diversity.

 

[Podgy]

Not seeing why you replied to me. What did I miss?

Nothing. I clicked it by mistake I guess

 

[85Bears]

Evolution doesn't "say" anything although I'd be interested in finding out what traits, or genes, and from what populations, you believe are most important in modern society. But I guess if evolution naturally produces diversity then I have a diverse family. I just thought we were all white people but apparently a business can hire my entire family and be diverse and inclusive of diversity. We're products of evolution and we all have some genetic diversity.

Definitions and context matter, diversity of foods is good for you, vitamins antioxidants. Diversity as it is used by some with a political agenda hasn’t worked out so well ie) London, Paris or many places in the US.

diversity as it is defined in current DEI policies means advancement for every group other than European Christian heterosexual males despite merit. Good thing we had no DEI in the 19th or 20th century, you would not have a telephone, radio, automobile, electricity or an airplane.

 

[Podgy]

Speaking of New Orleans, and the Coast, I regularly go to all sorts of events there. Diversity isn't really something on display. I was just at Hogs for the Cause which was a great event almost exclusively full of diverse white people. Orleans Parish is over 60% non-white.

 

[She Mate Me]

The decline of these communities started before the schools divided or what not. Folks looking to blame that for a decline are just looking to find blame.

Starkville, Hattiesburg and Cleveland are doing just fine, and they are in areas where private schools sprung up due to that sort of thing, or public schools not being good, whatever. And they are all doing fersine because they have economic engines.

So you're absolutely right about the money. If moeney is there, people will figure out the race bullshlt and move past it.

I don't see the point of bringing small/medium towns with minor/major public universities into the discussion. Of course they're doing well and it's very obvious why.

 

[Podgy]

DEI is really just a slogan and a jobs program for some businesses. I was at Tulane not long ago and the word diversity was tossed around. Tulane's undergraduate enrollment is about 7% black even though it's in a parish that's over 60% black. Hardly diverse but the slogan, rather than the reality, matters. I think the key is to tell people to accept others and not be racist and find some ways to remedy past discrimination without excessively discriminating against current Americans. Symbolism does matter and MS has some historical baggage to overcome.

 

[Podgy]

One of the key roles is government support. There's this notion that "gubment bad" when the reality is that a lot of federal dollars have modernized regions. Louisiana, for instance, got the second largest funding in WWII of any Southern state and that money helped communities modernize. State has gotten a lot of federal money and over the years those juicy federal shipbuilding contracts helped places like Pascagoula. Trent Lott and Thad Cochran may have talked publicly about the importance of limited government but they made sure federal dollars came to MS. S. Montgomery was good for Meridian

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I don't see the point of bringing small/medium towns with minor/major public universities into the discussion. Of course they're doing well and it's very obvious why.

I was just using them as an example of an economic engine overcoming race issues inside the town. But just curious, what is your criteria? Can I used tourism? Only use certain industries?

Let's go Thomasville, AL. Great mayor who has recruited a ton of industry. Public and private schools.

What about Tupelo for that matter? They recently opened a private school even with the success of their public school. What does that tell you?

You realize that I will be limited by the towns I can choose, because most of the industry is going to big cities anyway? Thus, why small town schools are slowly declining as well? Thus the point of this, no matter if a private school popped up or not.

So I don't really understand your point. College towns are the perfect examples of how money overcomes race/schools splitting, etc.

 

[mstateglfr]

diversity as it is defined in current DEI policies means advancement for every group other than European Christian heterosexual males despite merit. Good thing we had no DEI in the 19th or 20th century, you would not have a telephone, radio, automobile, electricity or an airplane.

The first sentence is incorrect.
And the second sentence is incorrect.

...so this is all just incorrect.

 

[85Bears]

DEI is really just a slogan and a jobs program for some businesses. I was at Tulane not long ago and the word diversity was tossed around. Tulane's undergraduate enrollment is about 7% black even though it's in a parish that's over 60% black. Hardly diverse but the slogan, rather than the reality, matters. I think the key is to tell people to accept others and not be racist and find some ways to remedy past discrimination without excessively discriminating against current Americans. Symbolism does matter and MS has some historical baggage to overcome.

DEI is a financial policy introduced by BlackRocks Larry Fink that affects all major corporations and investment holdings, it’s not just a slogan it influences corporate policy and HIRING procedures. Look it up “S&P 100, 300 thousand jobs created 94% went to non-white hires in the wake of corporate DEI policy”..Bloomberg News