OT: Rivian $42k Repair Bill

[thatsbaseball]

Interesting (albeit a little long) article on solid state batteries for EV's

10 Things You Need To Know About Solid-State Batteries And EVs

EVs are getting more and more efficient with every passing day, but they will achieve the optimum standards when powered by solid-state batteries

www.topspeed.com

 

[Hot Rock]

I make 200-300 mile round trips during high school football season. Try finding a charging station in some small town in Mississippi. I make those kind of trips at other times too. Current EVs wouldn't work for me. For everyday use it would be fine, but I can't afford to have two cars just for myself.

Yep, that is a good point and if I were in your shoes, neither would I. Thing is, the technology is changing rapidly.

Just keep watching it one day soon you might be fine with the range and # of charging stations. Keep in mind that most of the time you charge at home to save $$$. To charge at a station will cost more as they have to make money and they pay the same for electricity as you do.

Now, think of this.

Gas: 300 miles at trip cost about $30.00 with a 30mpg car and $3.00 gas.

Electric - 300 mile trip cost - less then $9. I average 3.8 miles per kilowatt hr. (varies from 3.4 to 4.1) - I pay less than 11 cents per KWH at home. 300 / 3.8 X .11 = $8.68

That's a savings of $20+ every trip. Sure, you have to offset the extra initial cost but depending on the price of fuel and electricity that happens within the fist 50 - 70,000 miles and then on top of it you get way less cost in upkeep.

We are beginning to hear about guys driving 500,000 miles in the EV's with little to no repairs. Not even brakes pads replaced because of the regenerative braking being used.

When more people see the cost advantages, they will make the switch when it becomes apparent you won't be stranded on the side of the road due to the lack of recharging. That recharging tech is changing rapidly as well. I can recharge in 10-20 minutes at a high speed charger or a few hours at home.

 

[Hot Rock]

IF it actually saves money they will. That has to include the initial price point as well.

I agree 100% and go further: Has to save money, be reliable, safe and user friendly. All that has to happen but the thing is, I am satisfied already that all those things are met for me. I also can see how it's not for everyone right now but as they improve they may be fine.

Reliable and safe go hand in hand, reliability not there, that cost you money and time. People won't tolerate it.

 

[ChE1997]

People are paying $90K for a pickup truck? What the 17?!?

An F150 Limited starts at $85k. Top of the line, but if you have not priced Trucks lately, they are high.

 

[ChE1997]

I make 200-300 mile round trips during high school football season. Try finding a charging station in some small town in Mississippi. I make those kind of trips at other times too. Current EVs wouldn't work for me. For everyday use it would be fine, but I can't afford to have two cars just for myself.

Then you shouldn't buy an EV....

A Hybrid would work for you if you wanted to save on Gas.

Or you could buy an ICE car...

 

[ChE1997]

As currently constituted, there are almost no neighborhood grids in the country that could handle 2+ cars charging every night at every house. That's just fact.

So people where you live cannot all run the AC at night? Or the electric oven? or Electric Dryers?

All of the above use as much or more power than an EV charging....

 

[SchrodingersDawg]

An F150 Limited starts at $85k. Top of the line, but if you have not priced Trucks lately, they are high.

I'd say the same thing about somebody paying $85K for a gas powered F150. That's dumb. It's a 17ing pickup truck for chrissakes.

If I can't walk out the door under $30K I'm making do with what I have or I'm looking elsewhere. I know schit is expensive right now, but damn. It's a 17ing pickup truck.

 

[ChE1997]

I'd say the same thing about somebody paying $85K for a gas powered F150. That's dumb. It's a 17ing pickup truck for chrissakes.

If I can't walk out the door under $30K I'm making do with what I have or I'm looking elsewhere. I know schit is expensive right now, but damn. It's a 17ing pickup truck.

you are not getting a new full sized pick up then.

A base Ford F-150 XL is $33,600.

 

[ChE1997]

I bet there are a ton of them in places like Hollendale.

I think you are near tupelo.

A tesla model 3 long range would do this.

A trip to Hollendale would get you there with ~30% battery starting at 90% charged.
There are high speed chargers in Grenada. You'd have to stop there for 10-15 minutes on the way home.

 

[dorndawg]

Interesting...

Ford Slashes Price of Electric F-150 as Demand Weakens​

Sales of electric vehicles have slowed recently partly because prices of some models like the F-150 Lightning had risen a lot.

Ford said the Pro model of the F-150 Lightning has a list price of $49,995, a reduction of $9,979. The XLT 312A model with an extended range battery was cut $8,879, to $69,995. The top-of-the-line Platinum extended-range model will sell for $91,995, or $6,079 less than last week.

As a result of price cuts, most Lightning models will cost less than $80,000, making them eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit authorized by President Biden’s ambitious climate change law, the Inflation Reduction Act.

To further spur demand, Ford is also offering a $1,000 discount for shoppers who custom order certain models through dealers by July 31. Ford’s credit arm is also offering 1.9 percent financing on 36-month loans.

Electric Vehicle Prices Fall as Automakers Raise Production

Ford, Tesla and other automakers are having to lower prices to lure buyers as the supply of battery-powered models begins to exceed demand.

www.nytimes.com

 

[patdog]

Interesting...

Ford Slashes Price of Electric F-150 as Demand Weakens​

Sales of electric vehicles have slowed recently partly because prices of some models like the F-150 Lightning had risen a lot.

Ford said the Pro model of the F-150 Lightning has a list price of $49,995, a reduction of $9,979. The XLT 312A model with an extended range battery was cut $8,879, to $69,995. The top-of-the-line Platinum extended-range model will sell for $91,995, or $6,079 less than last week.

As a result of price cuts, most Lightning models will cost less than $80,000, making them eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit authorized by President Biden’s ambitious climate change law, the Inflation Reduction Act.

To further spur demand, Ford is also offering a $1,000 discount for shoppers who custom order certain models through dealers by July 31. Ford’s credit arm is also offering 1.9 percent financing on 36-month loans.

Electric Vehicle Prices Fall as Automakers Raise Production

Ford, Tesla and other automakers are having to lower prices to lure buyers as the supply of battery-powered models begins to exceed demand.

www.nytimes.com

Volkswagen shut down their EV plant in Germany for 6 weeks, citing "extreme customer reluctance." With the current limitations on the technology and the skyrocketing prices, they've just about gotten to the point where everyone who wants an EV already has one. That will gradually change as the technology improves. But it's not going to happen for all customers by 2035.

 

[L4Dawg]

So people where you live cannot all run the AC at night? Or the electric oven? or Electric Dryers?

All of the above use as much or more power than an EV charging....

Planning on turning all that off at night?

 

[L4Dawg]

I think you are near tupelo.

A tesla model 3 long range would do this.

A trip to Hollendale would get you there with ~30% battery starting at 90% charged.
There are high speed chargers in Grenada. You'd have to stop there for 10-15 minutes on the way home.

How much is that car? What do comparable ICE cars cost? I could make the whole trip without filling up If I had to right now. As it is I stop 5 minutes and fill up to be safe.

 

[L4Dawg]

Then you shouldn't buy an EV....

A Hybrid would work for you if you wanted to save on Gas.

Or you could buy an ICE car...

That's right, I have a choice....and that choice should remain till people don't want ICE anymore. It shouldn't be forced by government mandate. I have nothing against EVs. They are the wave of the future. The key word is future. The technology just isn't there for mass use yet, not even in urban areas. For rural areas it's not even close yet.

 

[Captain Ron]

As currently constituted, there are almost no neighborhood grids in the country that could handle 2+ cars charging every night at every house. That's just fact.

Although I have 240v plug, I normally do 110v outlet which uses about less that 1700w which is way less than running the AC and is not that much more than some coffee makers or a blow dryer, but I don’t know the numbers for excess capacity.

Can your provide the data of how much extra consumption it would take to charge 2 cars based on daily average mileage and compare that to how much extra capacity there is in your town for example.

Our area is growing like crazy with new homes all with pools, pumps, pool heaters, and all the normal home stuff. Nobody ever says “that neighborhood should not be built because of the grid.”

I would really like to see the numbers and or the assumptions one makes with regards to actual EV recharging requirements..

 

[L4Dawg]

Although I have 250v plug, I normally do 110v outlet which uses about less that 1700w which is way less than running the AC and is not that much more than some coffee makers or a blow dryer, but I don’t know the numbers of e was capacity.

Can your provide the data of how much extra consumption it would take to charge 2 cars based on daily average mileage and compare that to how much extra capacity there is in your town for example.

Our area is growing like crazy with new homes all with pools, pumps, pool heaters, and all the normal home stuff. Nobody ever says “that neighborhood should not be built because of the grid.”

I would really like to see the numbers and or the assumptions one makes with regards to actual EV recharging requirements..

I am not an EE. I have been told that by people in the industry. I would expect since you are in a growing area that has been factored into the local grid. In established areas the grid will have to be beefed up, when it was not expected to. That is going to cost. Guess who will pay for that?

 

[MSUDAWGFAN]

Aside from wealthy folks who simply have more money than sense, I still don’t understand why anyone would want to buy one of those damn things.

I guess it depends on your situation. For me, I live north of Tupelo but work in Columbus, so I drive a lot. I put around 35-40, miles on a car normally in a year. When you factor in oil changes, gas, transmission fluid changes, brakes, etc that I don't have to do ( EVs have regenerative braking, so very little wear and tear on the brakes) it almost pays for itself. Once I'm done paying off the car, I'll be money positive over where I was with my Honda Accord.

Plus now, I get 2 years of free charging with Electrify America. So this past year I put more miles on it than I would have normally. I currently have around 43k miles on it in just over a year. We could make a trip to my parents house and save about $30-$40 on gas by using an EV.

For the record, I have a BMW i4 edrive 40. I drive 70 miles on way to work.

But I'll always tell the good with the bad. In cold weather, the range decreases fairly significantly. Also, it's heavier than an ICE car, so I'll have to replace tires a little more frequently.

I see so much misinformation out there though. One is on charging times when people say they don't want to spend hours charging on a long trip. To go from 20% range to 80% range, I have never spent more than 30 minutes. Ever. If I did, I'd have had to pay and I've made it to 80% every time.

Another is that it's slow. Wanna race?

Another is battery life. The first day I drove to work in it I started at 80% and got to work with 60%. I've had it almost 13 months and today when I got here I had 60%. I have had as low as 53% when it was cold t64% when conditions were ideal. Batteries will last a long time. I've heard 10 years, but if you take care of it (charge at home, only fast charge when necessary), keep it between 80% and 20%, it will last a lot longer than that.

I get it. I really do. I was anti EV until I got in one and rode in it. When I heard about maintenance cost, electric bills going up ( or how little they do), I was sold that my next car was going to be an EV. Plus, I got that $7,500 tax credit.

 

[SteelCurtain74]

I'm not an EE so what this guy says may be total crap but here is a video discussing the grid. If anyone has any counter arguments on what he's saying, I'm all ears.

 

[Hot Rock]

Planning on turning all that off at night?

Peak demands for electricity is waaaaaay higher mid-afternoon from 2-5 when it the sun beats down and it gets the hottest. People cool homes all day, many many many businesses shut down at night. The biggest users are factories and many of them don't operate all night at all.

 

[WrapItDog]

Based on my neighborhood. 75% of the population has too much **** in their garage to park a car/truck in the garage near a charger.

 

[ChE1997]

Planning on turning all that off at night?

I don't plan on using the oven all night, nor the Air Conditioner continuously, Nor the dryer for more than an hour.

And remember I have a EV...

so I know that it's only drawing 32 amps. And the larger Teslas draw 48 amps

Just like the one electric Oven or the dryer.

So If you can use those at the same time, you can have an EV.

 

[ChE1997]

How much is that car? What do comparable ICE cars cost? I could make the whole trip without filling up If I had to right now. As it is I stop 5 minutes and fill up to be safe.

I'm not saying you have to get one. I'm saying that you can do it with available tech right now, with a negligible increase in your trip time.

I without the tax rebate, $45,000. As for a "comparable" ICE car cost with all the features of the Model 3? It's classed as a "Luxury sedan" so it's class is vs the C class, and the 3 series.

But i assume you want to know the "comparable" cheaper car is The Kia Stinger and Honda Accord are comparable, But to get the same features, you'll spend about $5,000 less.

 

[MSUDAWGFAN]

I'm not saying you have to get one. I'm saying that you can do it with available tech right now, with a negligible increase in your trip time.

I without the tax rebate, $45,000. As for a "comparable" ICE car cost with all the features of the Model 3? It's classed as a "Luxury sedan" so it's class is vs the C class, and the 3 series.

But i assume you want to know the "comparable" cheaper car is The Kia Stinger and Honda Accord are comparable, But to get the same features, you'll spend about $5,000 less.

The lifetime ownership cost of a Model 3 vs a Honda Accord is significantly less for the Model 3 since there is very little maintenance costs.

 

[ChE1997]

I am not an EE. I have been told that by people in the industry. I would expect since you are in a growing area that has been factored into the local grid. In established areas the grid will have to be beefed up, when it was not expected to. That is going to cost. Guess who will pay for that?

The power company....

Who "pays for that" when they build out those new neighborhoods?


And I swore I said that we need more infastructure spending in the USA. Decades of neglect have cost us trillions.

And part of that is the electric grid.

But if you can run your AC, and an electric Dryer, and an oven. you can charge your EV overnight.
Not to mention if you have a pool pump.

And that's if you use 220V.

If you use 110V, it's pulling 15-20A. So if your wife uses a hair drier, you are ok.

And before you ask, yes charging on 110V takes longer. Maybe, 12 hours to fully charge. but are you driving while you sleep?

 

[MSUDAWGFAN]

The power company....

Who "pays for that" when they build out those new neighborhoods?


And I swore I said that we need more infastructure spending in the USA. Decades of neglect have cost us trillions.

And part of that is the electric grid.

But if you can run your AC, and an electric Dryer, and an oven. you can charge your EV overnight.
Not to mention if you have a pool pump.

And that's if you use 220V.

If you use 110V, it's pulling 15-20A. So if your wife uses a hair drier, you are ok.

And before you ask, yes charging on 110V takes longer. Maybe, 12 hours to fully charge. but are you driving while you sleep?

To piggyback on this post...

With my EV, my electric cost has gone up around $40 a month, but I put on about 40k miles in a year. Guess how much of my electric bill is from my HVAC? It's a good bit more than $40.

 

[The Peeper]

Note to self: Do not drive anywhere close to a Rivian

or buy one and wreck it yourself.

 

[ChE1997]

I'm not an EE so what this guy says may be total crap but here is a video discussing the grid. If anyone has any counter arguments on what he's saying, I'm all ears.

Some comments on the video. He is being VERY conservative in his numbers.

His first assumption is that "All vehicles are electric" which no one has ever said would be the case anytime soon.
We will use biofuel, and probably Hydrogen.

Annual electricity transmission and distribution (T&D) losses averaged about 5% He used 8%.
EV Level 2 charging efficiency On average, Level 2 charging was 89.4% for more than 4 kwh He used 86%
for 1.18e12 kwh vs his 1.25e12 kwh

He assumed we would need to generate 30% ( really 28%) more power, but we don't need all that to be added. We need it used better, and some added. Lucky we are adding 40-50 GW a year of power. and could be more if we updated the grid.

And like he says, it's not that much growth.

I don't have an issue with the other assumptions.

 

[The Peeper]

Coming soon for everybody is the VMT… Vehicle Miles Traveled tax.

Oregon and Utah are already testing and Vermont is getting ready to implement it.

Oregon, Utah, and Vermont. Enough said.....

 

[ChE1997]

That's right, I have a choice....and that choice should remain till people don't want ICE anymore. It shouldn't be forced by government mandate. I have nothing against EVs. They are the wave of the future. The key word is future. The technology just isn't there for mass use yet, not even in urban areas. For rural areas it's not even close yet.

I'm not sure where you are that they are making you buy and EV. I'm sorry. It must be tough to live in a state that tells you what you can do. you should vote for different local leaders.

and before you say "BUT CALIFORNIA!!! BlAH BLAH BLAH" and neither is Biden.

A biofuel ICE, or a hydrogen car is a zero emission vehicle.

Also, you don't live in california

And i personally think the time line for the california plan is aggressive, but I don't live there either..

 

[The Peeper]

It's great for what I use a car for. Driving to and from the office and around town. My longest driving day is well below the battery range, which is the smallest pack.

My insurance went down on my Tesla from my last car, an Audi

You just described my 2007 F150. I drive it to work daily (about 4 miles) and my longest trip in town is 9 miles (my house to Lowes) My insurance is extremely low on the 16 year old truck. I can also jump in it w/ no hesitation and take a 300 mile trip if I need to. Whichever Demorcrat tries to make me buy an EV in the future w/ higher initial cost and higher insurance for what I do w/ a vehicle can in the immortal words of "Sloe" Joe Moorhead " go pound sand

 

[ChE1997]

Oregon, Utah, and Vermont. Enough said.....

one f these things is not like the other...

 

[ChE1997]

You just described my 2007 F150. I drive it to work daily (about 4 miles) and my longest trip in town is 9 miles (my house to Lowes) My insurance is extremely low on the 16 year old truck. I can also jump in it w/ no hesitation and take a 300 mile trip if I need to. Whichever Demorcrat tries to make me buy an EV in the future w/ higher initial cost and higher insurance for what I do w/ a vehicle can in the immortal words of "Sloe" Joe Moorhead " go pound sand

I need a cite where anyone is taking old cars off the road....

because your truck would be decades behind in the list. taking any pre 1970 car off the road would be much higher on that list.

But if you replace that F150 with a new one, my model 3 is cheaper to buy and to run.

 

[mstateglfr]

As currently constituted, there are almost no neighborhood grids in the country that could handle 2+ cars charging every night at every house. That's just fact.

Perhaps this is true, I don't know.
Even if it is true, it is quite meaningless.

We aren't anywhere close to 2 cars charging every night in every home. We aren't even close to 1 in 20 cars charging every night in every home.

Like I said- the doomsdayers entered the chat. Just filling up posts with stuff that is inaccurate, or misleading, or meaningless all in effort to...just not change because they don't like the change? I am genuinely unsure what the motivation is to constantly doomsday all over threads about EV tech.

"We can't support everyone having one! Grids will fail! Ahhhhh!"
"Well since nobody is suggesting that, why the 17 are you even bringing it up?"

 

[mstateglfr]

You just described my 2007 F150. I drive it to work daily (about 4 miles) and my longest trip in town is 9 miles (my house to Lowes) My insurance is extremely low on the 16 year old truck. I can also jump in it w/ no hesitation and take a 300 mile trip if I need to. Whichever Demorcrat tries to make me buy an EV in the future w/ higher initial cost and higher insurance for what I do w/ a vehicle can in the immortal words of "Sloe" Joe Moorhead " go pound sand

If currently owned ICE vehicles are banned and you are forced to turn in your ICE truck for an EV, I will be right behind you shaking my fist at that BS.

 

[mstateglfr]

That's right, I have a choice....and that choice should remain till people don't want ICE anymore. It shouldn't be forced by government mandate. I have nothing against EVs. They are the wave of the future. The key word is future. The technology just isn't there for mass use yet, not even in urban areas. For rural areas it's not even close yet.

What government mandate is forcing you to buy an EV or forcing you to get rid of your ICE vehicle?
...or are you just preemptively going on the offensive and establishing a position of 'over my cold dead hands'?


Your choice is remaining in place. Nobody is forcing you to sell your current vehicle and buy an EV.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

You know we are opening new lithium mines and battery plants here? And that most of the lithium comes from south america?

THe biden administration allowed Thacker pass to be opened. which will brine mine lithium in the USA.

Also Lithium salts are commonly present in the oil and gas water byproduct. Processing that brine for those metals would be easy if the market is there.

Yeah, but we are losing to China in Africa. Also a quick search shows The greenies like lithium mining as much as they like oil mining LINK. Just pointing out it is not the panacea that we are being told about.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Perhaps this is true, I don't know.
Even if it is true, it is quite meaningless.

We aren't anywhere close to 2 cars charging every night in every home. We aren't even close to 1 in 20 cars charging every night in every home.

Like I said- the doomsdayers entered the chat. Just filling up posts with stuff that is inaccurate, or misleading, or meaningless all in effort to...just not change because they don't like the change? I am genuinely unsure what the motivation is to constantly doomsday all over threads about EV tech.

"We can't support everyone having one! Grids will fail! Ahhhhh!"
"Well since nobody is suggesting that, why the 17 are you even bringing it up?"

LOL If owned an EV I would be less concerned about what I was doing to the grid than what the grid might do to me in case of an extended outage.

 

[mstateglfr]

LOL If owned an EV I would be less concerned about what I was doing to the grid than what the grid might do to me in case of an extended outage.

While it isn't a 0 chance of happening, I am as concerned about an extended electrical outage as much as I am concerned about a gas shortage.

In 42 years I've been thru 1 outage that I would consider extended- a derecho 3 years ago and we didn't have power for 4 days.
I drove like maybe 40 miles that week since there was no reason to drive.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

Planning on turning all that off at night?

No. The chargers don’t use any more power than a dryer. That’s the point.
Listen, EV does not make sense for everyone. I would bet probably 75% if not closer to 85% of drivers it would make sense. Within 5 years time, it is going to be closer to 98% of drivers, due to charging tech and battery tech with improved driving range and solid state.

the second they allow me to buy a truck that gets over 400 miles on a charge, I am buying one. I am going to install a fast charger at my office and let the business pay for all of my charging needs every single day.
Taking trips only takes maybe 5 minutes of planning.
Zero oil changes.
Instead of 90 bucks of gas, I would charge for 14.50.
For 90% of my trips, no planning necessary.

 

[PhredPhantom]

LOL If owned an EV I would be less concerned about what I was doing to the grid than what the grid might do to me in case of an extended outage.

With an electrical outage, gasoline pumps at service stations don’t run either.