UEFA Euro 2024 thread

[Tom McAndrew]

Gunok miracle save keeps Austria at bay after Demiral sparks frantic Turkey win

Demiral scored the second-fastest goal in European Championship history and then got another in the second half as Turkey held off Austria to win 2-1

www.theguardian.com

 

[Tom McAndrew]

 

[Tom McAndrew]

 

[Tom McAndrew]

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Two entertaining games at Euros today:

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Just a great match between Spain and Germany, except for all the fouls. Spain dominated, and seemed set to win, but Germany just tied it up with under 2 minutes left (excluding stoppage time):

 

[Tom McAndrew]

looked for sure to be heading to PKs, and then Spain with a fantastic header in the 119th minute.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

 

[dcf4psu]

As a long suffering Jets fan I am used to looking elsewhere for quality football so it makes sense that I enjoy other national teams playing quality football/soccer rather than the US team.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

As a long suffering Jets fan I am used to looking elsewhere for quality football so it makes sense that I enjoy other national teams playing quality football/soccer rather than the US team.

I hear you. But I think I just look at things a bit different. In competitions where the USA is involved, then I follow all of the competition, but really want the USA to do well, and get pretty bummed if/when they don't. That said, I usually get over the disappointment, and then just enjoy good soccer, without rooting too much for any particular team.

In competitions where the USA is not involved (like the Euros), then I just sit back and enjoy the competition. For example, France and Portugal are playing in the Euros right now. It's like a rock-em-sock-em robots competition, except neither team has scored. Just great end-to-end soccer. They are near the end of extra time, so this is likely to be settle it via PKs. And I've enjoyed every minute, and don't care who wins.

And there is the whistle, so we are going to PKs

 

[Tom McAndrew]

what a PK shootout. Portugal had one shot hit the post and bounce away. That was the difference between advancing and going home.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

 

[dcf4psu]

I heard you. But I think I just look at things a bit different. In competitions where the USA is involved, then I follow all of the competition, but really want the USA to do well, and get pretty bummed if/when they don't. That said, I usually get over the disappointment, and then just enjoy good soccer, without rooting too much for any particular team.

In competitions where the USA is not involved (like the Euros), then I just sit back and enjoy the competition. For example, France and Portugal are playing in the Euros right now. It's like a rock-em-sock-em robots competition, except neither team has scored. Just great end-to-end soccer. They are near the end of extra time, so this is likely to be settle it via PKs. And I've enjoyed every minute, and don't care who wins.

And there is the whistle, so we are going to PKs

Penalty kicks as we speak.

what a PK shootout. Portugal had one shot hit the post and bounce away. That was the difference between advancing and going home.

Thrill of victory, agony of defeat.

 

[dcf4psu]

Cannot imagine how this would play if the USA could ever get into this position; be at this level.

 

[WestSideLion]

I’m gutted for Germany. That warranted a PK. The shot was going to the goal and hit a Spain defender’s hand. The ref really messed that up. Shame that VAR is used in leagues but not internationally.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I’m gutted for Germany. That warranted a PK. The shot was going to the goal and hit a Spain defender’s hand. The ref really messed that up. Shame that VAR is used in leagues but not internationally.

that's a tough one. It's in the gray area, despite IFAB's attempts to make handle ball evaluation as black-and-white as they can. As a ref, you're looking if the arm is in an unnatural position, away from the body, to make the body bigger. If the arm is near the body, it's considered in a natural position, and as long as the arm does not play the ball, it's not a hand ball if the ball hits the arm.

In the play in question, Cucurella moves to his right just as the ball is struck. As such, his left arm is the last thing to move. Cucurella is making an effort to pull the arm to his side when the ball hits his wrist.

As I mentioned above, this was pretty gray in terms of what to call. In real time, I thought it was not a hand ball. After looking at the replay, I still think it's not a hand ball. That said, if you showed the video to a 100 refs (which is what happens in ref training), and ask them to vote on whether it's a hand ball or not, I suspect it would have been somewhere between 60-40 (no hand ball) to 50-50 between the two options.

The ref was in good position (kudos to him for his movement in the entire game, as he was pretty much always in good position) and made the call. He motioned to the German players that complained about the no-call that the arm was in close.

If you're a fan of Spain, it's a clear-cut no hand ball. If you're a fan of Germany, it's a clear-cut hand ball. If you're a ref, you're probably in that 60-40 to 50-50 zone that I previously mentioned.

 

[WestSideLion]

that's a tough one. It's in the gray area, despite IFAB's attempts to make handle ball evaluation as black-and-white as they can. As a ref, you're looking if the arm is in an unnatural position, away from the body, to make the body bigger. If the arm is near the body, it's considered in a natural position, and as long as the arm does not play the ball, it's not a hand ball if the ball hits the arm.

In the play in question, Cucurella moves to his right just as the ball is struck. As such, his left arm is the last thing to move. Cucurella is making an effort to pull the arm to his side when the ball hits his wrist.

As I mentioned above, this was pretty gray in terms of what to call. In real time, I thought it was not a hand ball. After looking at the replay, I still think it's not a hand ball. That said, if you showed the video to a 100 refs (which is what happens in ref training), and ask them to vote on whether it's a hand ball or not, I suspect it would have been somewhere between 60-40 (no hand ball) to 50-50 between the two options.

The ref was in good position (kudos to him for his movement in the entire game, as he was pretty much always in good position) and made the call. He motioned to the German players that complained about the no-call that the arm was in close.

If you're a fan of Spain, it's a clear-cut no hand ball. If you're a fan of Germany, it's a clear-cut hand ball. If you're a ref, you're probably in that 60-40 to 50-50 zone that I previously mentioned.

The arm was away from his body and it prevented a shot on goal. It’s a double whammy. I’m not a fan of either country, FWIW.

 

[manatree]

I’m surprised that the ref in the Germany-Spain match didn’t run out of room in his book. Both teams have multiple players ineligible for the next match

 

[Tom McAndrew]

The arm was away from his body and it prevented a shot on goal. It’s a double whammy. I’m not a fan of either country, FWIW.

I'm trying to help you with how a ref looks at it. The second part of your statement "it prevented a shot on goal," is a non factor. The only time that comes into play is on a deliberate hand ball, where the offending player uses their arm to prevent a goal.

The first part of your statement is relevant. However, fans, players, and coaches constantly are misusing/misinterpreting the "away from the body" clause. You also have to factor in the natural position" component. Nobody runs with their hands/arms "glued" to their body. That would be unnatural. If players are in a wall, where they are not moving (unless jumping up), then it's natural for the hand/arm to be very close to the body. So a ref would call a handle ball for a ball hitting the arm in a wall for an arm position that is much narrower than is the case in most other situations.

I think I explained pretty well above how a ref could evaluate Cucurella's movement of his left arm as natural, and the arm not being away from the body, or in an unnatural position, when the ball hit his wrist.

I also did my best to show that this particular play is in a gray zone, where different refs could reach different conclusions. There isn't a definitive right or wrong in terms of what to call on this play.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I’m surprised that the ref in the Germany-Spain match didn’t run out of room in his book. Both teams have multiple players ineligible for the next match

The joy of working with mics, and a 4th official. The type of offense, and the number of the player that was booked, is communicated. ideally, the center ref and both ARs write down the info, in addition to the 4th official writing it down. After the game, the 4 of them get together to generate the game report. The center is responsible for submitting the report, but all 4 of the refs participate in the writing of it.

FWIW, my only complaint with the ref was that he handed out too many yellows early in the match for challenges that, while not perfect, probably didn't warrant a yellow. He was trying to set the tone, and he was mostly consistent. Still, most refs also try to limit cards handed out in situations where they know there is a potential for a player to be out the subsequent game (in this came a semifinal) to situations where the player gives them absolutely no other choice by their actions.

 

[WestSideLion]

I'm trying to help you with how a ref looks at it. The second part of your statement "it prevented a shot on goal," is a non factor. The only time that comes into play is on a deliberate hand ball, where the offending player uses their arm to prevent a goal.

The first part of your statement is relevant. However, fans, players, and coaches constantly are misusing/misinterpreting the "away from the body" clause. You also have to factor in the natural position" component. Nobody runs with their hands/arms "glued" to their body. That would be unnatural. If players are in a wall, where they are not moving (unless jumping up), then it's natural for the hand/arm to be very close to the body. So a ref would call a handle ball for a ball hitting the arm in a wall for an arm position that is much narrower than is the case in most other situations.

I think I explained pretty well above how a ref could evaluate Cucurella's movement of his left arm as natural, and the arm not being away from the body, or in an unnatural position, when the ball hit his wrist.

I also did my best to show that this particular play is in a gray zone, where different refs could reach different conclusions. There isn't a definitive right or wrong in terms of what to call on this play.

Then I’ll take issue with the asinine level of nuance and interpretation in the UEFA rule. This is one of the reasons rule interpretations are ruining the game. This was so close to the Denmark handball in the round of 16. It’s a shame to see matches hinge on these interpretive decisions.

 

[manatree]

The joy of working with mics, and a 4th official. The type of offense, and the number of the player that was booked, is communicated. ideally, the center ref and both ARs write down the info, in addition to the 4th official writing it down. After the game, the 4 of them get together to generate the game report. The center is responsible for submitting the report, but all 4 of the refs participate in the writing of it.

FWIW, my only complaint with the ref was that he handed out too many yellows early in the match for challenges that, while not perfect, probably didn't warrant a yellow. He was trying to set the tone, and he was mostly consistent. Still, most refs also try to limit cards handed out in situations where they know there is a potential for a player to be out the subsequent game (in this came a semifinal) to situations where the player gives them absolutely no other choice by their actions.

Question for you. I believe that three German players would have been ineligible for the next game if they had won because of the accumulated yellows. Does that suspension carry over to their next UEFA sponsored match?

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Question for you. I believe that three German players would have been ineligible for the next game if they had won because of the accumulated yellows. Does that suspension carry over to their next UEFA sponsored match?

I'd have to do a lot of digging on the Euro 2024 rules, and even then I'm not sure I'd find an answer.

So instead of doing that, I'll fall back on how things normally operate in international competitions. Red cards generally do carry over. For example, Tim Weah got suspended 2 games for his red card in the recent USA - Panama Copa match. He sat out the match against Uruguay, which counted for one game of the suspension. He's also going to have to sit out the next USMNT game (it's in the USMNT thread). In general, though there are exceptions, red cards (and the sitting out of at least one game) carry over to the next international contest (excluding friendlies). Yellow cards don't typically carry over to future competitions.