Clifford was supposed to participate in the Hula Bowl yesterday.

[Ludd]

Here's a salient example for this discussion... Penn State vs Purdue this year.

Purdue HC Jeff Brohm pretty much single handedly stole defeat from the jaws of victory in that game with his late-game play calling.

Somehow managed to burn a grand total of about a minute and a half off the clock in two late (or was it three?) fourth quarter drives. I'm pretty sure we even took a timeout to the locker room that game. That's *how* atrocious his play calling was.

Yes, the Purdue kids didn't execute and complete simple pass plays that would've kept the clock running. Yes, Penn State played great pass defense in those late drives which may have lead to some of those incomplete passes.

But the reality is he could've run fullback dives 6 times and punted twice and it would've most likely burned enough clock that Cliffy's heroic drive would never have happened.

Don't have to be a HS football coach to realize that was atrocious clock management. I was at the game and the Purdue fans were losing their **** the entire last 5 minutes of the game.

Now maybe, just maybe, I had seats in the Indiana Retired HS Football Coach Association's section and their criticism was valid. Or maybe, laypeople can have valid observations about football, just like every other aspect of our lives that we're passionate about.

And no, before anyone goes there, the fact that Louisville just opened the checkbook for Brohm for a huge long term contract doesn't invalidate criticism of his ginormous brain fart in the 4th quarter of that game.

And yes, Franklin out coached his opponent that game. But that doesn't invalidate all criticism of him ever.

And his late play calling is being criticized only because it didn’t work. Had he taken FB dives and punted and PSU would have won, he would have been accused of “turtling up” and giving away the win. See how this works? Franklin gets accused of being too conservative with a lead when we lose, but if we open it up more with a lead he gets accused of poor clock management. That’s the very definition of Monday morning coaching.

 

[BostonNit]

...because the most intelligent player on the field, froze and simply became a spectator on a play we had executed properly almost two dozen times previously in that very game.

Is it good coaching to call the same play 20+ times in a game and think the other coach/team/players are not going to eventually blow it up?

Asking for a friend.

 

[Ludd]

We get it. Never the coaches fault. Coaches always make the right call, on both sides of the field. If only the damn kids would execute properly!

The problem is the average fan doesn’t know when it’s the coach’s fault or the players fault because they don’t know what went wrong and why something didn’t work. But they have no problem blaming the coach for everything. Coaching is not a job that can be judged on a play by play or even a game by game basis. There are too many moving parts.

 

[Ludd]

Is it good coaching to call the same play 20+ times in a game and think the other coach/team/players are not going to eventually blow it up?

Asking for a friend.

Yet if a team has a play that’s working and they get away from it, the fans always say they should keep doing it until the other team stops you. See, it’s easy to always blame the coach.

 

[BostonNit]

Had he taken FB dives and punted and PSU would have won, he would have been accused of “turtling up”.

Except barring a muffed snap or something similar there was probably a 99% chance we don't even get the ball back for that last drive had he turtled up.

And if you want to play "ya but...", maybe with everyone stacking the line, the back breaks thru for a long TD and it becomes a two score game.

Was it Woody who said "When you throw the ball there are three things that can happen and two of them are bad"? In certain instances that still runs true despite the wide open nature of today's game.

 

[marshall23]

Is it good coaching to call the same play 20+ times in a game and think the other coach/team/players are not going to eventually blow it up?

Asking for a friend.

It's about execution not deception..typical fanboy misconception. I mean if something is working it makes perfect sense to try something else.

 

[marshall23]

I like Fumi and her "stand by your man" Tammy Wynette-ness. It's cute.

You must not have much esteem if you think that was a smear. And kids are off limits. Always.

Fumbled again. One bad comment compounded by another.

 

[Connorpozlee]

Actually, it would be more accurate to state that most posts here criticizing Franklin are unfounded and unfair. Therefore, IMO most criticism of Franklin here is unfounded.
As to the post you responded inappropriately to....it clearly pointed to one specific game, one specific play that I cited as an example of failure being the result of an inexplicable brain freeze by a player. It stands in my memory since it cost the team a win (on the 1 yard line). In the last 10 seconds. Perhaps physical or mental fatigue.
Unlike you and your enlightened allies, I try (mostly) to avoid always and never.
In fact, I believe more than once I have written, coaches, players and officials make mistakes.....fanboys are never wrong. Loses are not always tied to poor coaching or execution. The opponent can actually outplay you. An officials decision or an ill timed turnover can be the difference. Think about the MLB pitcher who hurls a no hitter and on the next outing gets shelled. Who's fault? The pitching coach, the manager, the catcher.....must be the umpire. Or, perhaps he didn't have his best "stuff."
These athletes are human. They don't always perform up to their collective "star" ratings.
Yet, the vigilantes cry Marshall ...."never the coaches fault......" butt hurt or poor reading comprehension?

Who are my enlightened allies? No idea where you’re going with that.
Is it ever a coach’s fault?

 

[Connorpozlee]

The mocking is for posters who act like they know more than Franklin. I also mock those that have selective memory about our past and judge Franklin based on unrealistic expectations….I don’t mock just because they criticize.

I honestly don’t know who you are. Have you been on here for awhile? Changed usernames? A Marshall puppet account? The username is new to me.
Again, having differences of opinion are fine. Having different levels of knowledge are also fine. Calling other fans “fanboys” and whatnot is childish but harmless.

 

[Connorpozlee]

The problem is the average fan doesn’t know when it’s the coach’s fault or the players fault because they don’t know what went wrong and why something didn’t work. But they have no problem blaming the coach for everything. Coaching is not a job that can be judged on a play by play or even a game by game basis. There are too many moving parts.

I agree with this in large part. But the fans are fans, not coaches. I don’t expect fans to have the same level of knowledge as somebody who has coached the game.
when do you think it is fair to judge a coach? 9 years?

 

[BostonNit]

It's about execution not deception..typical fanboy misconception. I mean if something is working it makes perfect sense to try something else.

So the other coach who eventually caught on and blew up your masterfully designed play was a fanboy also?

 

[BostonNit]

It's about execution not deception..typical fanboy misconception. I mean if something is working it makes perfect sense to try something else.

And that's why you're in the PA HS coaching Hall of Fame and I'm forever relegated to being a knuckle-dragging Luddite.

 

[marshall23]

Who are my enlightened allies? No idea where you’re going with that.
Is it ever a coach’s fault?

Can you read?

 

[Connorpozlee]

Can you read?

Sure, that how I respond to you. What’s your point?

 

[marshall23]

I like Fumi and her "stand by your man" Tammy Wynette-ness. It's cute.

You must not have much esteem if you think that was a smear. And kids are off limits. Always.

Actually, it's troubling for you to characterize Mrs. Franklin in this manner. She is highly educated and quite accomplished in her own right. At the least, your comment wreaks of sexism. Perhaps this is just the tip of the iceberg?
There really is no excuse for this or bringing her into the discussion.

 

[marshall23]

Sure, that how I respond to you. What’s your point?

"coaches, players and officials aren't perfect..... only fanboys are perfect" have you read this? Did you comprehend it?

 

[marshall23]

And his late play calling is being criticized only because it didn’t work. Had he taken FB dives and punted and PSU would have won, he would have been accused of “turtling up” and giving away the win. See how this works? Franklin gets accused of being too conservative with a lead when we lose, but if we open it up more with a lead he gets accused of poor clock management. That’s the very definition of Monday morning coaching.

Interesting that the same "couch coach" repeatedly criticized Franklin for playing "not to lose." Which way is the front? LOLLOLLOL

 

[Connorpozlee]

"coaches, players and officials aren't perfect..... only fanboys are perfect" have you read this? Did you comprehend it?

Sure, I read that one line from you. I’ve seen years of you mocking anybody that questions any coach’s moves though. That holds more power to me than one line in a single post.
Can you tell me off the top of your head (certainly not an easy thing to do)of a coaching mistake Franklin has made?

 

[marshall23]

And that's why you're in the PA HS coaching Hall of Fame and I'm forever relegated to being a knuckle-dragging Luddite.

First of all, I am not currently in any hall of fame (but since YOU brought it up, I have been honored with a field in my name). What I can say is that I am in my 50th consecutive year gainfully employed as a teacher/coach, school district athletic director, public school league administrator, and district and state officials coordinator. Remember, YOU chose to bring this into the discussion. There are others here who have enjoyed success both coaching and in athletic administration.
I've experienced a great deal along the way. I'd like to think that my longevity can be attributed to a reasonable amount of good judgement and some degree of expertise in athletics.
Over the past 40 years, I've often had the responsibility of evaluating (hiring and firing) coaches. The most difficult and painful decisions I've ever had professionally is letting a coach go. I can tell you that winning and losing is near the bottom of the criteria when it comes to making that very serious decision.
I will quote YOU on how to properly evaluate a coach....."a grounded family man, a fine representative of the university, runs a clean program, a great recruiter, embraces the concept of student athlete and has undoubtedly had success as a coach."

If and when Coach Franklin is not one of the above, I will consider it a fair opportunity to criticize him. I'm not going to criticize him for calling or not calling a time out.....or whatever his decision is on fourth and short. I'm not on the sideline and not privy to all the variables that are sailing through his headsets. Those criticisms are for fanboys.

 

[marshall23]

Sure, I read that one line from you. I’ve seen years of you mocking anybody that questions any coach’s moves though. That holds more power to me than one line in a single post.
Can you tell me off the top of your head (certainly not an easy thing to do)of a coaching mistake Franklin has made?

I don't second guess on the field in game coaching decisions (except in my head during the heat of the game).....
If I could have spoken to Coach Franklin and offered my opinion......I might have cautioned him about his "over selling" talent and prospects for success in his early years. I was a disciple of the Joe Paterno School of (what we used to call) "poor mouthing. ie" Gee, we have a long way to go. I think this can be a pretty good team if we continue to progress. Well, our goal this season is to be competitive. "

I'm sure he regrets his "elite" declaration uttered in the emotions of a difficult defeat.
I think you'd agree that he's moved away from that sort of hype for the most part.
In a way, he could be forgiven for allowing 2016 to (a season that came out of nowhere to exceed expectations) perhaps give him a feeling that success might come easier than it has.
I don't care who you are or what your profession is.....you learn.....hopefully adjust your approach. Is Nick Saban the same coach he was at Michigan State?
All that being said, I am firm in my belief that there is no other coach better suited for PSU than Franklin.
In conclusion, buckle your seatbelt for 2023....cause 11-2 is pretty hard to top.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I don't second guess on the field in game coaching decisions (except in my head during the heat of the game).....
If I could have spoken to Coach Franklin and offered my opinion......I might have cautioned him about his "over selling" talent and prospects for success in his early years. I was a disciple of the Joe Paterno School of (what we used to call) "poor mouthing. ie" Gee, we have a long way to go. I think this can be a pretty good team if we continue to progress. Well, our goal this season is to be competitive. "

I'm sure he regrets his "elite" declaration uttered in the emotions of a difficult defeat.
I think you'd agree that he's moved away from that sort of hype for the most part.
In a way, he could be forgiven for allowing 2016 to (a season that came out of nowhere to exceed expectations) perhaps give him a feeling that success might come easier than it has.
I don't care who you are or what your profession is.....you learn.....hopefully adjust your approach. Is Nick Saban the same coach he was at Michigan State?
All that being said, I am firm in my belief that there is no other coach better suited for PSU than Franklin.
In conclusion, buckle your seatbelt for 2023....cause 11-2 is pretty hard to top.

Now that is a well thought out response that I agree with. I would love to see more of this type of post from you instead of calling passionate fans “fanboys” because they have a different opinion than you are have less experience. Anyway, good enough discussion and I’ll move on from it. Have a good day.

 

[Tom_PSU]

Now that is a well thought out response that I agree with. I would love to see more of this type of post from you instead of calling passionate fans “fanboys” because they have a different opinion than you are have less experience. Anyway, good enough discussion and I’ll move on from it. Have a good day.

Well that was very President Nixon like of you. Right in the middle of the mess to declare victory and walk away. Now I imagine I’m going to have to find another thread to either instigate and or continue making trouble. Anyway, have a rainbow day.

 

[marshall23]

Well that was very President Nixon like of you. Right in the middle of the mess to declare victory and walk away. Now I imagine I’m going to have to find another thread to either instigate and or continue making trouble. Anyway, have a rainbow day.

North Korea is still out there...don't give up hope.

 

[CBusLion10]

I remember Hawk seriously underestimating DWill's speed and taking a bad angle. Very obvious when they showed it from the end zone view.

Decent dive block on Hawk by guard Tyler Reed, was just enough to spring it. Block timing was beautiful on that play

 

[Connorpozlee]

Well that was very President Nixon like of you. Right in the middle of the mess to declare victory and walk away. Now I imagine I’m going to have to find another thread to either instigate and or continue making trouble. Anyway, have a rainbow day.

That’s funny as hell! Well done!

 

[PSUJam]

 

[BostonNit]

Interesting that the same "couch coach" repeatedly criticized Franklin for playing "not to lose." Which way is the front? LOLLOLLOL

FYI from 6:27 on the clock when they got the ball back, until they punted to us two drives later with 2:22 left, Purdue threw nine incomplete passes. NINE. We only called two timeouts to stop the clock because we didn't need to even use the third, they did it for us.

Assume they ran fullback dives on even 5 of those 9 plays and we used our last time out as well. So, only a few seconds for the play w/the timeout, and 4 x 40 secs = 160 seconds off the clock, or 2:40 for the FB dives.

For those of you who struggle with math, 2:40 > 2:22.

We'd not even had seen the ball for Cliffy's awesome drive if Brohm turtled.

 

[Tom_PSU]

FYI from 6:27 on the clock when they got the ball back, until they punted to us two drives later with 2:22 left, Purdue threw nine incomplete passes. NINE. We only called two timeouts to stop the clock because we didn't need to even use the third, they did it for us.

Assume they ran fullback dives on even 5 of those 9 plays and we used our last time out as well. So, only a few seconds for the play w/the timeout, and 4 x 40 secs = 160 seconds off the clock, or 2:40 for the FB dives.

For those of you who struggle with math, 2:40 > 2:22.

We'd not even had seen the ball for Cliffy's awesome drive if Brohm turtled.

I was led to believe that there would be no maths in this thread.

 

[VaDave4PSU]

We'd not even had seen the ball for Cliffy's awesome drive if Brohm turtled.

Or it could have happened sooner.

Or Purdue could have fumbled.

Or SC could have thrown another INT.

 

[marshall23]

FYI from 6:27 on the clock when they got the ball back, until they punted to us two drives later with 2:22 left, Purdue threw nine incomplete passes. NINE. We only called two timeouts to stop the clock because we didn't need to even use the third, they did it for us.

Assume they ran fullback dives on even 5 of those 9 plays and we used our last time out as well. So, only a few seconds for the play w/the timeout, and 4 x 40 secs = 160 seconds off the clock, or 2:40 for the FB dives.

For those of you who struggle with math, 2:40 > 2:22.

We'd not even had seen the ball for Cliffy's awesome drive if Brohm turtled.

Why do division one coaches lack your skill and judgement?
Now you can correct Brohm and Franklin......you are really gifted.

 

[BostonNit]

I was led to believe that there would be no maths in this thread.

Let me start off with two words... "Made in America!".

 

[BostonNit]

Why do division one coaches lack your skill and judgement?
Now you can correct Brohm and Franklin......you are really gifted.

These are not my thoughts, as I'm unqualified. Luckily for that game I sat in the Indiana Retired HS Coach Association's section and heard enough informed discussion to relay it here. Please don't shoot the messenger.

 

[BostonNit]

Or it could have happened sooner.

Or Purdue could have fumbled.

Or SC could have thrown another INT.

Or with everyone stacked at the line the FB breaks thru for a long one and they go up by 2 scores.

Or even if not a long run, they get a 1st down and burn another 2 mins without having to punt and there's only one drive and not two.

I get it, none of us know, but does anyone agree passing the ball on nearly every down when you have a lead late in the game is the *best* strategy?

 

[marshall23]

These are not my thoughts, as I'm unqualified. Luckily for that game I sat in the Indiana Retired HS Coach Association's section and heard enough informed discussion to relay it here. Please don't shoot the messenger.

You are certainly a candidate for the Fanboy Hall of Fame.

 

[marshall23]

Or with everyone stacked at the line the FB breaks thru for a long one and they go up by 2 scores.

Or even if not a long run, they get a 1st down and burn another 2 mins without having to punt and there's only one drive and not two.

I get it, none of us know, but does anyone agree passing the ball on nearly every down when you have a lead late in the game is the *best* strategy?

Serious question: Doesn't anyone know how to coach this game?

 

[CBusLion10]

FYI from 6:27 on the clock when they got the ball back, until they punted to us two drives later with 2:22 left, Purdue threw nine incomplete passes. NINE. We only called two timeouts to stop the clock because we didn't need to even use the third, they did it for us.

Assume they ran fullback dives on even 5 of those 9 plays and we used our last time out as well. So, only a few seconds for the play w/the timeout, and 4 x 40 secs = 160 seconds off the clock, or 2:40 for the FB dives.

For those of you who struggle with math, 2:40 > 2:22.

We'd not even had seen the ball for Cliffy's awesome drive if Brohm turtled.

They really helped us out, calling plays like Charlie Jones was an automatic completion. But this is a pretty good example of criticism after the fact. That's a fun math exercise but you can't cherry pick those 9 incompletions like they exist in a vacuum, convert 5 of them into FB dives and pretend all the other variables stay the same.

I agree with you that they were too aggressive, got too cute and it cost them. Protecting a lead I would run on first down, they only did that once on those last possessions. Maybe overestimated their passing game or underestimated Penn State's defense. Maybe the ghost of Joe Tiller took over. I lost my recording of the game unfortunately so can't speak too much on it.

 

[VaDave4PSU]

does anyone agree passing the ball on nearly every down when you have a lead late in the game is the *best* strategy?

Purdue was throwing the ball 75% of the time. It was their only success based on the 2.8 ypc average they had rushing. Running the ball burns clock, but was highly unlikely to get them first downs. They got a couple first downs passing late I believe. They couldn't score. They couldn't eat the entire clock.

Best strategy isn't across the board is it? You play with the team you have and you do what you think they do best.

 

[marshall23]

Now this is a gym teacher.

 

[marshall23]

Purdue was throwing the ball 75% of the time. It was their only success based on the 2.8 ypc average they had rushing. Running the ball burns clock, but was highly unlikely to get them first downs. They got a couple first downs passing late I believe. They couldn't score. They couldn't eat the entire clock.

Best strategy isn't across the board is it? You play with the team you have and you do what you think they do best.

One could argue that Purdue lost primarily because of the chop block. Things were looking pretty bleak for PSU and the 15 yard penalty flipped the field rather quickly.

 

[BostonNit]

They really helped us out, calling plays like Charlie Jones was an automatic completion. But this is a pretty good example of criticism after the fact. That's a fun math exercise but you can't cherry pick those 9 incompletions like they exist in a vacuum, convert 5 of them into FB dives and pretend all the other variables stay the same.

I agree with you that they were too aggressive, got too cute and it cost them. Protecting a lead I would run on first down, they only did that once on those last possessions. Maybe overestimated their passing game or underestimated Penn State's defense. Maybe the ghost of Joe Tiller took over. I lost my recording of the game unfortunately so can't speak too much on it.

I don't have the recording either, but you can look at the ESPN play by play drive summary here...

https://www.espn.com/college-football/playbyplay/_/gameId/401405064

I agree with you that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum, and that not everything else would likely play out exactly the same, but replace even 3 or 4 of those zero yard incompletions with zero yard rushes with the clock continuing to run, and the hill for Penn State to climb would've been much steeper if even possible.

What was interesting was Allar was on the field after we received the last punt as Cliffy was banged up or had a gastro problem or something. Allar looked surprisingly cool when he warmed up for the late drive and I was still confident that we'd somehow pull the game out.

If I recall correctly, I believe there was a TV timeout on the change of possession, and Cliffy came out of the tent a took the field for the final drive. Was pretty interesting watching it all play out from our seats that were just a few rows back.

I will say their fan(boy)s were losing their minds in the stadium as this played out. Exciting game and win which set the table for our season.