OK- So tell me who you're going to hire
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@marshall23 and @HarrisburgDave I apologize for intruding in your discussion, and I don’t wish to take sides.
However, HB, you and several others say get another coach for the team, yet no one has offered a name.
Curious why no one has answers the OP’s question - “tell me who you’re going to hire”?
OL
However, HB, you and several others say get another coach for the team, yet no one has offered a name.
Curious why no one has answers the OP’s question - “tell me who you’re going to hire”?
OL
I’m not in the fire Franklin camp. I’ll support whoever is the coach at Penn State. On a side note though, Lance Leipold is one hell of a football coach.
It's a relatively useless exercise mostly because in this scenario, we can't hire someone away from a 'blue blood' program - so all HC's at USC, Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Notre Dame, Florida State, Michigan, Ohio State, and Texas are off the board. As are HC's having otherwise good years - Washington, Oregon, Ole Miss. That leaves a relatively small pool of a) overachievers at smaller programs - Leipold at Kansas, Brohm at Louisville, b) buzzworthy assistants looking for a shot - Garrett Riley, OC, Clemson, Matt House, DC, LSU, Phil Longo, OC, Wisconsin, Sherrone Moore, OC, Michigan, Brian Hartline, OC/WRs, Ohio State, and my favorite new name, D'Anton Lynn, DC, UCLA, c) familiar names maybe worth another look - Mike Bobo, OC, Georgia, Kliff Kingsbury, QBs, USC, our very own Manny Diaz, and d) NFL assistants maybe willing to make the move since it worked out so well for Bill O'Brien. Oh, and no one will accept Urban Meyer or Greg Schiano, or Matt Rhule, so don't bother. The twist is there is an excuse for not hiring any of these guys - especially NFL assistants, mostly because we (and I mean at least 'I') do not have any idea who would be interested in such a job - and of course, any assistant coach on a team with a loss is also going to be shat on. I remember when Franklin's name came up after BOB left and most were like - this Vanderbilt guy? Really? But, instead of looking at what he's done at Vanderbilt and other places (which was fine but not spectacular), everyone immediately thought about what he could do for Penn State, with Penn State players, and our resources, etc. And people got excited about it. They're just not willing to do that for anyone else. And Ohio State hasn't won a NC with Ryan Day, but turns out he's been an excellent hire from within that staff. Who knows? The point is, we won't until we do.
So, if you want me to throw a name out there, I'd say Brian Hartline. Excellent recruiter, knows the B1G, worked under Ryan Day, developed the B1G's best NFL prospects in recent years, and knows Penn State. That work? How about Peyton Manning? Cut his teeth before taking an NFL job? Who knows?
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Frankly, no. Acknowledging someone lacks it what it takes to win a national title does not mean you think you're entitled to a national title. It's just an observation, and/or a desire to see if someone else could.
Hartline is very patient…he is going to be OSUs next coach…he is patiently waiting and that is not speculation.
Doesn't everyone lack what it takes to win a National Championship until they actually win one?
No. Ryan Day hasn't won one, but I've seen enough from OSU's teams in big games to think he has what it takes. There's plenty of instances where you can see someone's potential before they actually achieve it.
It's not about thinking you can do better, it's about recognizing when someone else can't do something. I'm pretty sure if Franklin asks a civil engineer to design a road and bridge to his home, and the road goes smoothly, but the bridge collapses every time, he's going to offer some criticism of the civil engineer.
Just this week, according to X or Twitter or whatever, the following coaches should soon be available:
Garrett Riley
Dabo Swinney
Mack Brown
Brett Venables
Pat Narduzzi
John Smith
Lincoln Riley - for much of Saturday, but now he may be OK, DC definitely gone though
Colorado OL coach
Kailen DeBoer - until Stanford dropped the 4th down pass
Billy Napier
Mike Locksley
Mario Christabal
There may be some more available after next week's games.
You named one, and if he doesn't beat Michigan this year, they'll be screaming for his head again. Could you see Ed Orgeron, national championship head coach, at any point in his career?
Fran Ganter was patient. So was Tom Bradley. Things don’t always work out the way everyone thinks they will. If he’s offered the right job at the right price, he would be forced to consider it. He isn’t getting any younger either.
No, and I couldn't see him winning another. That's a fair point, but it's sure tough to bank on landing the best QB-WR-WR combo in college history to pull it off.
I could name other coaches I think may have the potential, I didn't know you wanted a list. The point is there will be plenty of guys who have the potential and we don't know yet. But you show me anyone with Franklin's record v. top 10, ranked, etc, through a full decade at a blue blood school who then went on to win a title. Maybe Dabo is the closest? He won a title by his 9th year, but his first few years weren't the disaster Franklin had to deal with, so that may be a fair comp if you want to say Franklin has a chance. I didn't follow Dabo's games in those earlier years well enough to know if every big game felt the same way with him that they do with Franklin.
"Definitions of Insanity""
1. Believing a James Franklin coached team will ever win a national championship.
2. Believing Penn States offensive line will ever be any good.
INDIANA went through the offensive line like they were standing still.
10 years of this ****, Pathetic!!!
1. Believing a James Franklin coached team will ever win a national championship.
2. Believing Penn States offensive line will ever be any good.
INDIANA went through the offensive line like they were standing still.
10 years of this ****, Pathetic!!!
Like I said before, it's a dishonest question. Nobody here works in high level college athletics. Nobody here works with sports agents. Nobody here works in the media. So nobody has the kind of data that you need to even begin speculating. We could all endlessly toss out names and have them roasted by people who maintain faith that James Franklin will, eventually, get over the last hill and become that legendary coach Penn State fans pine for.
The reality is that almost nobody knows who's going to be a great head coach and who's going to fail. It's high stakes blackjack. What Penn State fans have to ask themselves is this....do you hit on a soft 18 or do you stay?
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We are really comparing coaching football to civil engineering now?
Wow. What self-aggrandizing nonsense.
Civil engineering is harder by an order of magnitude.
Even amongst engineers, passing the professional Structural Engineering test is very difficult. It is far harder than the regular Professional Engineering exam and the pass rate depending on speciality is 30-40%. (No I am not a civil engineer)
There ain't a football coach in the country that could do it.....
Wow. What self-aggrandizing nonsense.
Civil engineering is harder by an order of magnitude.
Even amongst engineers, passing the professional Structural Engineering test is very difficult. It is far harder than the regular Professional Engineering exam and the pass rate depending on speciality is 30-40%. (No I am not a civil engineer)
There ain't a football coach in the country that could do it.....
Cautionary tale: Dave Aranda at Baylor. Four years ago, a hot DC who was in on a lot of HC discussions. His second year at Baylor seemed to confirm the esteem in which many, present company included, held him, Since then? Not so much (but who knows going forward?)
Keep in mind that for every Kirby Smart there are dozens of Jeremy Pruitts. Does that mean not to take a flyer to find the next Kirby Smart? Absolutely not. Just understand that the flyer could last a decade or two.
Perhaps he doesn't want to step into a situation where if you lose one game people think you are on the "hot seat."
I could see him throwing his hat in the ring at USC or Texas A&M. Lot's of talent and resources just need the right chef.
Same with Manny. He can get a HC job. He's been burned once and will wait for a job that is right.
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Honest question. When choosing an assistant coach/coordinator from a list of hot names......more hits or more misses?
The answer is The Kirby Smarts are scarce. Will Muschamp, Jeremy Pruitt, Chad Morris, Chuck Amato, Randy Shannon, Pat Narduche, Joe Morehead.....on and on and on....let's try 2 or 3 and see if we deserve better.
More misses, of course, though the degree of "miss" has a wide range. By my definition, there are a half dozen or so "elite" coaches.
I think you can tell within the first four years; give them a five year deal and a chance to cycle through their first recruiting class. You can probably tell how well they'll do after two recruiting classes (well, unless you're Brady Hoke but he probably should have been given a bit more time....). Smart was 8-5 his first year at Georgia. This is what his hiring did for Georgia recruiting (they were already recruiting really well and only had ONE National Championship in football to date):
Recruiting Rankings (Rivals)/Bowl:
2010 - 15
2011 - 5
2012 - 12
2013 - 12
2014 - 7
2015 - 6 (Kirby Smart Hired)
2016 - 9
2017 - 3 - CFP L
2018 - 1 - NYD
2019 - 1 - NYD
2020 - 1 - NYD
2021 - 5 - CFP/National Champion
2022 - 3 - CFP/National Champion
2023 - 2
Smart was a DC for 8 seasons under Saban. Prior to that his best job was Dolphins safeties coach and DC at Valdosta State. You never know who is going to be 'the guy', but the 'new hire' sizzle is powerful. Sometimes it works (Meyer, Saban, Smart), sometimes not (Frost, Fisher, etc.). Penn State, up until 2015, had a better, more historically successful football program than Georgia. People claiming 'CELING' are full of it. Franklin didn't get the full benefit of his new hire sizzle because of sanctions; now that his resume is out there for all to see, people know more about what they're getting into for better or worse.
But your point is well taken.
Inclined to agree that you know by year four whether you have "the guy." He might not quite have reached the promised land, but he will demonstrate considerable progress and on the verge. Clearly the case with Smart and I would add Day and Swinney.
Saban is an interesting case. His first four years at MSU weren't all that great, but he inherited a program on sanctions. Year five was much better, but then he bolted to LSU and the rest is history.
Harbaugh is also not a clear cut case and his history at Michigan causes be to classify him as "on the doorstep." Demonstrated great progress at Stanford, but no one expected him to contend for national titles there. First five years at Michigan were a mixed bag, but the last two (and going on three) put him on the verge of entering the top rank.
Riley's years at Oklahoma had me putting him among the elite coaches. I'm taking a step back from that because his performance at USC has me wondering whether his early success was largely a function of underwhelming competition in the Big 12.
The corollary to your theory is that you also know by year 10 that your guy doesn't have it.
Franklin was on that trajectory with the 2016 season that almost no one saw coming. But turtling in '17 and '18 against OSU, then OSU-hangover losses against MSU both years ended that and has us where we are today, still b!tching about another near OSU-hangover loss and lamenting OL play.
Imagine the different trajectory had we not squandered late 4th quarter leads those years and won 3 straight against OSU.
People would be talking about the Alabama's and Georgia's and Penn State's of the world.
Once, there are at least 18 ranked teams who have hired new coaches since Penn State hired Franklin. Once? And then you have 2 champions, 2 losers in the championship game and another 4 teams that have been in the CFP with coaches hired since Penn State hired Franklin. Once?
Look at my previous post for coaches I think would do as well or better than Franklin.
Football is sooooo hard to understand. How can anyone observe a game and notice when a coach time and again panics in fourth quarters and makes dumb decisions? How can anyone appreciate when a coach is outcoached by his counterpart? How can anyone tell when a team is flat and uninspired? How can anyone look at a record of ten years and see a terrible record against good programs and feeding of the bottom teams?Have you ever heard a D1 football coach criticize a civil engineer?R E S P E C T!
Your coaching genius argument is dumb and tired.
You've captured Ed Orgeron who is a turd both as a coach and as a human being and Sonny Dykes, who proves nothing.
Many elite coaches that aren't working in the right environment. No different than an elite player that isn't surrounded by enough talent to be on a high profile team. Back in the day, actors and actresses were "discovered." LOL, they were always "there." The right people needed to cross their paths and recognize their potential.
Apparently coaching requires no expertise. Even a beer drinking civil engineer, sitting on his couch could do a better job, just by watching on TV.
Don't doubt that for a minute, but that's the way the dice roll sometime. So what's Franklin's excuse? And don't say Ms. Excllence. because she did hire Sonny Dykes
.My response is easy. Franklin doesn't need an excuse. He just doesn't win as much as some fans think he should. So what? Everyone has an opinion. The people that have the opinion that counts, must really be satisfied with him.Don't doubt that for a minute, but that's the way the dice roll sometime. So what's Franklin's excuse? And don't say Ms. Excllence. because she did hire Sonny Dykes
James certainly isn't worried. He's guaranteed at least 7 or 8 million a year. If those in power want him gone, he gets that times the x the number of years left on the contract as a parting gift. He and the new AD are joined at the hip.
But cheer up. I think Maryland could make you happy....LOL...But in any event, James will likely be here until he chooses to leave. Boo fn hoo.
You trot out your genius as a coach to belittle the opinions of other people who know a "game". The rest of us can see for ourselves that the guy you defend like he is your brother in law is a bottom feeding coach who has proven, thru his record, to have a terrible record against his counterparts at winning major programs with comparable history and resources.
Sorry sport, but football is a game. It is not differential calculus. Those of us who have played it and watched it for decades know a thing or two. When a man has a record, one whose negatives you ignore, we can understand his shortcomings. His is performance in games that matter, not games against the like of Delaware or Northwestern, is so bad you have to be a fool to ignore it. Figures, you ignore it.
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Honestly don't care whether PSU fires or retains him. But he won't win a national championship if he remains.
Understanding a game, judging an established record, appreciating continued mistakes, and acknowledging when a man is getting outcoached requires no training or gifted insight.
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Football is a game with rules and strategies people can understand without a degree. Anyone who thinks that only a genius with his coaching experience can understand the game is outright arrogant and stupid.
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“Lose one game” is not in the same ballpark as “lose all your big games for a decade.”
The people who ask "Name a coach with a better or winning record against ranked teams that we can hire?" are asking the wrong question. If you want to limit yourself to those candidates you would look at Brian Kelly, Chip Kelly and Jimbo Fisher. All good men, far better than Franklin, but not men that I would choose for the long term.
The question should be, "Give me names of talented people who would be good prospects to excel and improve our terrible record against ranked teams and increase our chances at the CFP?"
When you follow that course you may find a Bud Wilkinson (assistant experience only before being hired), Joe Paterno (assistant coach only before being hired), Ara Parseghian (losing conference record as a B1G coach before being hired), or Scott Peterson (established himself at a school outside of the P5). If you fire a man not with those greats maybe you luck out with a winner who can take Penn State resources and at least not fail more than 80 percent of the time in games that matter.
To find such people you look at the college head coaching ranks, top college assistants, and NFL talent that may be interested in a college gig. I provided a few names of college head coaches I would start with.
So please begin to apply some logic to your arguments and don't ask the same dumb questions that the Franklin fan boys will use to deflect his critics.
The question should be, "Give me names of talented people who would be good prospects to excel and improve our terrible record against ranked teams and increase our chances at the CFP?"
When you follow that course you may find a Bud Wilkinson (assistant experience only before being hired), Joe Paterno (assistant coach only before being hired), Ara Parseghian (losing conference record as a B1G coach before being hired), or Scott Peterson (established himself at a school outside of the P5). If you fire a man not with those greats maybe you luck out with a winner who can take Penn State resources and at least not fail more than 80 percent of the time in games that matter.
To find such people you look at the college head coaching ranks, top college assistants, and NFL talent that may be interested in a college gig. I provided a few names of college head coaches I would start with.
So please begin to apply some logic to your arguments and don't ask the same dumb questions that the Franklin fan boys will use to deflect his critics.
1. I do not pretend to be a coach. I do consider myself a good judge of coaching performance. Football is a game and not a science.
2. I do not drink.
3. Yes, I have a STEM related degree from Penn State. I also have forty years of management in private industry. Does that make me a genius? No. Is that evidence I have enough intelligence to learn rules of a game and appreciate those who master a game? Yes. Just like I have enough knowledge and intelligence to judge when someone is not elite at the game. Am I unique with this knowledge, a former member of a select cadre of people gifted with a special insight? No. You repeatedly claim you are.
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